Wolves as Endangered Species

[Arnabas]

Ok, well, I don't have time to read this whole thing right now, but here's my 2 cents (again, bear in mind that I haven't read through the whole thing, so if I repeat arguments already used, bear with me...)
I have loved wolves as far back as I can remember. According to a native friend who determined my "power animals", Wolf was my special companion/ protector spirit. I think they are magnificent creatures. On the topic of Alaska, I know they did support wolf hunts, but not to keep the population down. They wanted to keep wolves from killing too many carribou, so that there would be more of them for hunters, thus providing more income opportunities for the region... Wolves were being slaughtered not to protect any kind of nature balance, but rather to ensure higher profits... Very sad.

How come no one ever ends up with a pygmy shrew, or a three toed sloth or a skunk as their "power animal" or spirit guide? Why is it always an eagle, a wolf or a bear? Why not a bunny rabbit? or prarie dog? or a opossum? Inquiring minds want to know. Along the same lines, how come no one is ever a diseased moron in their past life? Why is it no one ever gets the super power of swift nasal passage clearing, in the comics?

Sorry my first inquiries were serious but I was suddenly struck with a sublime lunacy [img]smile.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Sir Krustin:

Wild animals don't breed domesticated ones. The breeding of domesticated wolves with domesticated dogs is a whole other kettle of fish. I am not aware of any breed of wild hybrid.[/QUOTE]


I wasn't aware that any wolves were domesticated. I was under the impression that they could not be domesticated.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Moni: As for your explanation about the post you made earlier, IIRC, you normally address specific people with their names in different colors in your posts adressing more than one person and you will normally add you own views (pro or con) in a manner which makes it clear you are not speaking to anyone in particular. I did seek the opinions of others here before posting as to whether or not your initial statements were directed at me (having them read before asking them how much of it was directed at me) and they did not see most of your post any differently that I had, even when I read it over again to be sure.

You are correct that I do normally address specific members with different colored fonts - when I am addressing them or their viewpont directly. I didn't do that in my original post because the bulk of that post was NOT directed at any one specific member....I was just stating my views on a number of issues that had been raised and countered by several different members. As you said, the only part of my original post that was directed at you was the first paragraph.

I have also had several of my "objectionable posts" reviewed by 3rd parties, who did not feel they were inflammatory or insulting. So I guess we are at a stand-off there.

I appreciate and accept your apology and I offer my own in turn. I do disagree with several of your views (and will most likely continue to do so) but I try to go out of my way to avoid insulting anybody - no matter how strongly I disagree with them. If I have insulted you or hurt your feelings, it was purely un-intentional..but I apologize nonetheless.

I hope we can put this incident behind us and continue to be friends. My feelings towards you have not changed. I also won't be making any more "off topic" Posts within this thread.....but I felt like I needed to address this issue publicly to explain my posts and answer your questions.

With that said, I will reiterate that I personally do not like hunting of ANY type. I simpy could not bring myself to shoot an animal for any reason other than defending me or my family. And since we don't have wolves or coyotes here in NC, I doubt I'll ever face that situation.

[Aelia Jusa]

Originally posted by MagiK: How come no one ever ends up with a pygmy shrew, or a three toed sloth or a skunk as their "power animal" or spirit guide? Why is it always an eagle, a wolf or a bear? Why not a bunny rabbit? or prarie dog? or a opossum? Inquiring minds want to know. Along the same lines, how come no one is ever a diseased moron in their past life? Why is it no one ever gets the super power of swift nasal passage clearing, in the comics? Sorry my first inquiries were serious but I was suddenly struck with a sublime lunacy [img]smile.gif[/img]

LOL! Good point Magik (the second one ).

Re your first point, I agree too. I hate the idea of anthropomorphising animals (though I think for a different reason you do), because it means people are putting their own subjective values onto animals - and some that aren't sufficiently cute or powerful or 'human-like' aren't valued at all so it doesn't matter if they are killed. Plus you can never protect a species by arguing that they are beautiful or intelligent - for everyone who thinks they are someone else will say they're not - who's right? Much like the hoo-ha about Koreans eating dogs - everyone jumps up and down in horror at eating the intelligent wonderful man's best friend - pigs are just as intelligent and aware and those who have them as pets say they're just as companionable as dogs. Although pinker. Yet it's a-okay to eat them. Something has to be worth living for it's own sake, because it's unique or just because it exists!

Some other things I've been musing about reading this thread. Why is it that a wolf who kills a human out in the wild is a vicious killer, yet a human who shoots a deer (say) isn't?

Also I suppose a bit off topic but I was thinking about the food chain thingy. To say humans are on top of the food chain is a bit of a misnomer really. We don't actually eat many of the animals we can kill - tigers, lions, sharks, wolves etc. If you put humans in with animals that eat the same stuff we do I think we're on a par with otters (maybe not otters actually, but something equally innocuous - I read that somewhere ). Yet when tigers and wolves and so on kill us, they do eat us. Obviously I know what being on top of the food chain is meant to mean. But still

[Sir Krustin]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Sir Krustin: Wild animals don't breed domesticated ones. The breeding of domesticated wolves with domesticated dogs is a whole other kettle of fish. I am not aware of any breed of wild hybrid.

I wasn't aware that any wolves were domesticated. I was under the impression that they could not be domesticated. [/QUOTE]Weren't you the one that mentioned a friend breeding hybrid? Which is it? Do they have them in captivity (and by implication, domesticated) or not?

Which brings us back to my point...where are the hybrids?

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Sir Krustin: Weren't you the one that mentioned a friend breeding hybrid? Which is it? Do they have them in captivity (and by implication, domesticated) or not? Which brings us back to my point...where are the hybrids?

Well, wild animals are kept in captivity and bred, and they certainly are NOT domesticated(lions, tigers, zebras, etc.), so I don't see that as a problem with Magik's post.

As to where the hybrids are, I have no idea, but I bet Magik will tell you. [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

[Sir Krustin]

Originally posted by Aelia Jusa: LOL! Good point Magik (the second one ). Re your first point, I agree too. I hate the idea of anthropomorphising animals (though I think for a different reason you do), because it means people are putting their own subjective values onto animals - and some that aren't sufficiently cute or powerful or 'human-like' aren't valued at all so it doesn't matter if they are killed.

Anthropomorphizing (great word) is bad because it places human values on a situation or creature that simply don't exist. Viewing wolves, or any other animal, as (for example) noble and using it as an excuse to protect it is just plain dumb. Virtues such as nobility don't exist in nature, and are invented by humans. Concepts such as mercy and compassion are likewise human inventions. A wolf has the traits it has so it can to survive the harsh realities of nature. A wolf won't spare your life because it's noble, and would kill you without a second thought if it didn't have a healthy fear of you. (btw, animals stop fearing humans mainly when deranged and/or diseased - an excellent reason to hunt and kill said animals, not only to protect humans but to protect the other animals in the habitat)

This is a major reason I dislike Disney films, btw, they anthropomorphise to an insane level, and teach kids stupid and dangerous ideas about nature. You have no idea how many kids I've had to dissuade from petting hunting dogs, or any strange dog at all for that matter simply because they thought all animals were cute cuddly things that wouldn't hurt anybody.

Some other things I've been musing about reading this thread. Why is it that a wolf who kills a human out in the wild is a vicious killer, yet a human who shoots a deer (say) isn't?

Hmm, I'm not aware of any hunters who call hunting anything but killing. Vicious is such a subjective term. I don't hate wolf, I just kill threats, quite often diseased/manged members of the pack.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by MagiK: How come no one ever ends up with a pygmy shrew, or a three toed sloth or a skunk as their "power animal" or spirit guide? Why is it always an eagle, a wolf or a bear? Why not a bunny rabbit? or prarie dog? or a opossum? Inquiring minds want to know. Along the same lines, how come no one is ever a diseased moron in their past life? Why is it no one ever gets the super power of swift nasal passage clearing, in the comics? Sorry my first inquiries were serious but I was suddenly struck with a sublime lunacy [img]smile.gif[/img]

I'll go off topic with ya here [img]smile.gif[/img]

Just for the record, my visions have included an alligator, a brown bear as well as a dolphin to name a few.

Spirit animals are going to suit the individual, although certain animals are cultural archtypes and will be more common.

As far as past lives go, one regression put me in an oven, Nazi style and another in the jungle with my leg torn off. Could have been flights of imaginative fancy, but the emotional recall and phantom pain was quite real.

As far as wolves go, I would only fear an encounter in the wild if the wolves were starving or rabid.

Originally posted by Sir Krustin: Originally posted by Moni: Cerek, If I am not mistaken, I was directly addressing Sir Krustin when I talked about hunting wolves for sport...the same person who in this very thread provided me with this link for reference on the size of Canadian coyotes vs American coyotes: Here (big snip) Regardless if the post was provided to me for reference in the size of a Canadian coyote, there are plenty of other sites that could have been used without reference to hunting for sport.

Unfortunately, I don't know of any. That site happened to be one I knew that had Canadian examples on them. This site also happens to be from a geographic area near where the shop is. [img]tongue.gif[/img] Wolfz is definitely in for the thrill of it, I used to hunt with him but since then I've stopped hanging around him. (Nothing to do with his hunting habits, he's actually a safe and conscientious{sp} hunter) But I have to ask this...if someone is following the rules and performing a valuable service for conservation, or simply just enjoying the meat does the thrill of the kill really matter??

Argh, sorry for mispelling your name Sir K....I think I've corrected them all lol.

Just call me Sir K or Krusty...most everybody does.

First off, I wouldn't worry about the not being able to provide another site without having to hunt one down...I wasn't the one who had a problem with me referring to hunting for sport while conversing with you in this thread but I had to back up where I was coming from.

Secondly, I wouldn't hold it against you if you did hang out with Wolfz in all honesty...what you do with your life is not betweeen you and me.

Third, I don't see where killing coyotes (or wolves) does a valuable service for conservation, nor do I see where it offers the hunter any edible meat so I cannot answer your question without bias. Sorry, but it could only lead to more unnecessary arguing over points that are based on morals and individuality.

And finally, Thanks Sir K
I seriously doubt if I'll ever forget that it is spelled i-n and not e-n LOL.