ONE question to all the atheists out there....

[Grungi]

aha thank you cerek [img]smile.gif[/img] thats my point too, IF it all existed then a good hearted person could get into heaven even without believing in god because god wills it, in which case the things god is supposed to have said before dont really count because thats not in keeping with his character.

Though i dont believe in god the way i see him portrayed is compasionate and the ultimate good to the point where he cares about every single blade of grass or living organism, i believe again IF heaven etc all existed that he would look at each creature, say are you reedemable? if so then your in, if not then hell, but to be unreedemable you'd have to have one evil soul.

But cloudbringer and vaskez from what i can see are saying because i dont believe in god then i dont get into heaven despite a relatively good life so far, which means my other option is hell, i cannot believe the god that they look up to so much would condemn me to hell so easily just because i dont believe.

Now its interesting that cerek believes what i believe (assuming i believed in religion) but vaskez and cloudbringer dont, yet all 3 are christians.

anyhows good post as usual cerek [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Melusine]

Originally posted by Vaskez: Mel, my point was that if you can find no other reason to believe then think about this...* insert first post in thread*

Fair enough Vasky, but can I then conclude you'd rather have people "believe in God" for whatever reason they can think up, even if it's such a selfish one? Rather that than have them be true to themselves?
If someone really cannot find a ground for faith in their hearts, like Epona for instance, they cannot force one out of "logical" reasoning like: Hell, I have nothing to lose and everything to gain, why shouldn't I believe in God??
I just don't think it works that way. Faith has to be a logical conclusion to all you feel... you cannot just decide it, ESPECIALLY if you can find no other reasons to believe than *insert your first post*.
The reason you mention, IMO, is just not a solid basis for true Faith as far as I can tell.

[Vaskez]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: OMG!!!! This thread has grown exponentially in less than one day??? I can't even begin to jump in. Busy now. Mayhap later I'll dig up one of my previous treatises on being an atheist and why it is the only logical and ethical thing to be. But, the first post bothers me: it makes the assumption an atheist would choose based on selfishness - ridiculous. Me, I like knowing I am food for worms. It means I'll make sure and do things right my one time around. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

Read my "famous" post on page 3 The really long one. That'll save you reading through the first 3 pages as from it you can get what others said and how I am responding.
Where have I said anything about selfishness? I didn't mean to imply anything like that.

ANYWAY MY BOTTOM LINE IS

Based on all the arguments in my "famous" long post near the bottom of page 3 as well as feelings and some others I haven't mentioned, I cannot see why people don't believe in a god. Maybe I'm just thick-headed?

Therefore ASSUMING none of page 3 stuff convinces you, (we've been over that stuff before in other threads that's why I didn't start with that) I posed the question on page 1: ok so what about the nothing to lose thing? That is why I am so confused about people. There's all the for-arguments (IMO much more for than against arguments exist, even this thread contains more for arguments) plus the better odds if you're just a gambler and DESPITE all that people cannot believe.

Confusing for me like you know the situations where something seems so obvious to you yet others don't see it at all and you can't see why they can't see it as it seems perfectly logical? Hehe...

[ 01-22-2003, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

[Vaskez]

Originally posted by Melusine: quote: Originally posted by Vaskez: Mel, my point was that if you can find no other reason to believe then think about this...* insert first post in thread*

Fair enough Vasky, but can I then conclude you'd rather have people "believe in God" for whatever reason they can think up, even if it's such a selfish one? Rather that than have them be true to themselves?
If someone really cannot find a ground for faith in their hearts, like Epona for instance, they cannot force one out of "logical" reasoning like: Hell, I have nothing to lose and everything to gain, why shouldn't I believe in God??
I just don't think it works that way. Faith has to be a logical conclusion to all you feel... you cannot just decide it, ESPECIALLY if you can find no other reasons to believe than *insert your first post*.
The reason you mention, IMO, is just not a solid basis for true Faith as far as I can tell.[/QUOTE]Of course *post on page 1* is not a solid basis. It's supposed to be a thought provoker I guess I should be more clear. However I think argument on *post on page 3* are a good basis. I don't believe in blind faith. Well maybe a tiny bit of it, just cos of the better odds, you know?

[ 01-22-2003, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

[Grungi]

the situation was explained repeatedly though vaskez, simply its hypocritical to try and believe in something that you simply dont, and if as you say god exists then he can see into your heart and know you dont believe, so theres no point even pretending.

seems pretty simple to me, you cannot make your feelings up, if you dont believe, you dont believe and almost nothing will change that. So if you are judged by god, you cant do a sudden turnaround and say "oh yes i fully believe in you and bath in your glory, blah blah" hes god for godssake [img]tongue.gif[/img] he'd know in a second and then by your own standards you'd be condemned to hell. Thats why people dont even pretend to believe just so they get into heaven on the offchance that when they die it will exist

[Vaskez]

Originally posted by Grungi: the situation was explained repeatedly though vaskez, simply its hypocritical to try and believe in something that you simply dont, and if as you say god exists then he can see into your heart and know you dont believe, so theres no point even pretending. seems pretty simple to me, you cannot make your feelings up, if you dont believe, you dont believe and almost nothing will change that. So if you are judged by god, you cant do a sudden turnaround and say "oh yes i fully believe in you and bath in your glory, blah blah" hes god for godssake [img]tongue.gif[/img] he'd know in a second and then by your own standards you'd be condemned to hell. Thats why people dont even pretend to believe just so they get into heaven on the offchance that when they die it will exist

Agreed. I was just provoking thought and trying to get answers to let me understand people better.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Grungi: aha thank you cerek [img]smile.gif[/img] thats my point too, IF it all existed then a good hearted person could get into heaven even without believing in god because god wills it, in which case the things god is supposed to have said before dont really count because thats not in keeping with his character.

I would think this is true. If my pastors were right, and I live the good life, and St. Peter refuses me because I didn't do the paperwork - then I don't want to be there anyway. I spend my whole life filling out forms to get things done - if heaven is that way you can keep it. The diety, should it exist, is either benevolent or simply not worth my while.

[Vaskez]

Hmmm just saw some posts at bottom of page 4:

Cerek - Nice post [img]smile.gif[/img]

Grungi - Don't ROFL at me you cheeky git [img]tongue.gif[/img] I already said that I'm not sure about Hinduism, however are YOU sure that there is no one God above all in their faith? i.e. they have loads of gods but one is more powerful than the other. Can they all be equally powerful? Even the ancient greeks (or was it romans? Always forget ) had Zeus as the king of gods even though there were loads of gods. Therefore what I am saying is in a way Zeus can be seen as THE God as he is the leader. That's just an analogy though to explain why I said what I did about Hindus. Go and ROFL at someone else [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Grungi]

oh, thought you were still asking the question for enlightenment [img]tongue.gif[/img] , i dunno you scummers eh (to anyone not from southampton or portsmouth ignore that) oh and vaskez you are from southampton arent you? epona said, but i dont know how he knows [img]tongue.gif[/img] so im assuming you are, and know what i mean by scummer [img]tongue.gif[/img]

anyhows well least now you know why people who dont believe see little point in pretending they do, like myself, i personally feel i get far more respect from someone religious for being goodhearted, honest and generally a nice person than if i followed their religion, all the religious people i know and have met RL do respect me more for that, they dont care what religion i am because im a nice person (95 percent of the time [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) and i feel if a god existed he too would respect me far more for that and care about that than me not believing in him

Though id like to throw something else into this discussion, i been using he for god all the time, one reason i dont think much of religion is its always about the male in charge, which at the time religions were formed was the case, the male was always in charge, so god becomes male, thats human intepretation yet again, it says to me men made the whole concept of religion up not some higher power, because if there really was a god why would he be male? and why was jesus a man (and have a beard [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) i cant think of a religion off hand where the main god is female, anyone else know? Anyhows thought id just bring that up [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Timber Loftis]

Okay, Vaskez, read your long post. Still I do not waver.

There is a human immortal soul. It is the teleological story of the species-being's growth, maturation, and existence over time. I am very spiritual. I have a duty to future generations of human beings and a responsibility for my actions that extends beyond the end of my life not because I will get rewarded or punished but rather because it is my little job in the vastness of human history.

However, I see no reason to believe in a God. The universe is eternal - I don't need to dream up some imaginary being and say he/she/it created the universe because that simple begs another question, to wit who made God? I am humbled by the immortality of all that is and do not need to personify it into a "God." That is the worst kind of arrogance for a human to engage in.

I do support organized religion, however, and I have written tomes on this very board regarding that. Put simply, I think I'm smart enough and responsible enough and educated enough try to do the right thing without the "carrot and stick" of religion, but I don't trust all of my fellow humans to be quite so smart, responsible, or educated.