Famous Atheists

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Chewbacca: So are we born with a conscience, or are we taught that some behaviors cause guilt and others joy? Nature or nuture, the age old debate. Well, my belief is that we are born with a conscience, instinct will drive us to seek joy and bliss, but conditioning will lead us to guilt and shame. Just my belief.

You might be interested in some of the psychological studies done a few deacades ago (would be illegal to do them now). They isolated children and raised them with no moral or behavioral guidence, from what I recall, there was no evidence of instinct nor moral compas inate to human children. The info is really hazy because I read about it years and years ago, but I seem to recall that some of the cildren turned very savage, and others ended up being near immobile and timid. All I remember clearly is how horrible I thought it was that they used human children in this research. [/QUOTE]Ummm, I wouldn't typify growing up isolated from behavioral conditioning as nature, and I wouldn't call teaching patterns of behavior that lead to guilt or shame nurture either.

Babies and children are an excellent example of what it means to be innocent, and it is natural to nurture them. It is the conditioned abusive and shameful behaviors of the parent that are passed to the child that disrupt a persons natural innocences.

Thats what I was driving towards in my post, in other words it is both nature as well as nurture.

Religion or the lack of, has little bearing to the teaching, expressing and understanding of compassion, a quality anyone can have.

Just my lil perspective...

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Neb: "It is my belief that a large amount of religious people don't really have morals and mainly do things out of fear of punishment/hope of reward."

1.How can you comment on the motivations of people you don't know or understand?

2.How are you reaching this conclusion? Because people profess and ideal but live short of it?

Have you ever heard of the concept of disconnect? Where there is a persons deeds fall short of their ideals?

That is evidence of human failure - of the individuals failure - to match ideals and behaviour, not that the person(s) don't have a moral code.

In any case, doing things out of knowledge of consequence (eg. Karma/Dharma) is itself a moral code.

[The Hunter of Jahanna]

This is an article that I think points out something that a lot of people in this debate have said. Basicaly,believing in god might make you a good person but it doesnt AUTOMATICALY make you a good person.BOTH Good and Shitty people believe in god.

Posted on Tue, Oct. 29, 2002 Anti-gay group plans protest at local church BAPTISM FOR BABIES OF GAY COUPLE ANGERS KANSAS CONGREGATION By Frank E. Lockwood And Valarie Honeycutt Spears HERALD-LEADER STAFF WRITERS An anti-gay group that pickets gay people's funerals and celebrates hate-crime killings will gather in front of the Cathedral of Christ the King next month to protest the recent baptism of a gay couple's quadruplets there. Fred Phelps, the pastor of Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, Kan., said 12 to 15 members of his congregation will travel to Lexington for the Nov. 24 protest. It'll be Phelps' second Kentucky appearance. He and his followers waved "God Hates Fags" signs near the entrance of Fort Campbell after a gay soldier there, Pfc. Barry Winchell, was beaten to death with a baseball bat on July 5, 1999. Phelps said he has held thousands of anti-gay protests across the United States. Yesterday, Phelps called gays and lesbians "vile, hell-bound beasts" and accused the priest who baptized the infants of being "demon possessed." "This is a monstrous sin against God," Phelps said. Yesterday, Kentucky Baptist officials quickly distanced themselves from Phelps, noting that the Primitive Baptist minister has also picketed against the Southern Baptist Convention and evangelist Billy Graham. "It's certainly safe to say that this particular individual or group certainly wouldn't be considered as someone who speaks for Kentucky Baptists or Southern Baptists," said Kentucky Baptist Convention spokesman Robert Reeves. As for Phelps' claims that God hates homosexuals, "We believe that God loves all people and that we as Christians and as Baptists want to approach all people from that standpoint," Reeves added. Thomas Shaughnessy, spokesman for the Catholic diocese of Lexington, said he didn't understand "why a Baptist church would concern itself with the sacramental life of the Catholic Church." "Quite frankly, it smacks of old-time Catholic-bashing, not to mention gay-bashing," Shaughnessy said. The reaction from Westboro Baptist Church stemmed from Saturday's ceremony in which Rev. Paul Prabell blessed domestic partners Thomas Dysarz and Michael Meehan as he would any other parents, and baptized their 3-month-old quadruplets at Lexington's Cathedral of Christ the King. The four babies were conceived through an in-vitro fertilization that paired a surrogate mother's eggs with the sperm of Meehan, a Lexington lawyer, who plans to raise the children with Dysarz, his male domestic partner. The quadruplets' July 26 birth via surrogate mother to gay partners is thought to be unprecedented. It drew worldwide attention to the two men. Catholic church doctrine prohibits surrogate motherhood and views homosexual acts as sinful. But officials at the Catholic Diocese of Lexington and Prabell based their decision to go ahead with the baptism after determining that the children would be raised as Catholics. Dysarz said yesterday that he and Meehan were not aware of the planned protests. Dysarz said he was concerned that the group was using words of hate as though God was saying them. Meehan defended Prabell. "I feel badly for the priest, that they are denouncing him for doing what he thought was right. He didn't condone homosexuality, he blessed the children." "I've always believed that God loves all people. It's not up to some church in Kansas to decide who should be baptized," Meehan said. Meehan said that some people quote Leviticus when they say the Bible condemns homosexuality. But Leviticus also says, "you should not bear hatred for your brother in your heart," Meehan said.

[ 10-29-2002, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: The Hunter of Jahanna ]

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: BOTH Good and Shitty people believe in God.

NO article necessary for me...lol.

[ 10-29-2002, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Ummm, I wouldn't typify growing up isolated from behavioral conditioning as nature, and I wouldn't call teaching patterns of behavior that lead to guilt or shame nurture either. Babies and children are an excellent example of what it means to be innocent, and it is natural to nurture them. It is the conditioned abusive and shameful behaviors of the parent that are passed to the child that disrupt a persons natural innocences. Thats what I was driving towards in my post, in other words it is both nature as well as nurture. Religion or the lack of, has little bearing to the teaching, expressing and understanding of compassion, a quality anyone can have. Just my lil perspective...

I see [img]smile.gif[/img] Well I thought that the results of the studies were kind of interesting and did sort of prove that there was no apparent natural programming or spiritual characteristics in the babies. I am however appalled that there are people in this world that could do that to babies and even publish papers on it, and still be able to live with themselves.

[ 10-29-2002, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Nanobyte]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: Hey! That's a quote for Nanobyte to have in his sig! Where is he when the good stuff is being spewed?

You mean this, "Just because people don't agree doesn't necessarily mean they're slamming one another."?

[Cerek the Barbaric]

{sigh} Good ole' Rev. "God Hates Fags" Phelps. [img]graemlins/headshake.gif[/img] A perfect example of somebody who exhibits a criminal-waste of the brain cells God gave him.

NEVER in His life did Jesus EVER preach or exhibit that type of hatred towards anyone - and that is NOT the way He expects Christians to act today. But it is a prime example of how some "preachers" twist the Bible to pursue their own agenda.

As the article noted, Rev. Phelps actions are neither endorsed nor condoned by the Southern Baptist Convention. Still, it's hard for outsiders to make a distinction between the "rantings of a renegade" and "official doctrine". Personally, I consider Phelps to be a bigger embarassment than Robertson and Falwell put together. It just saddens me to think of how many people he drives away from Christianity by his antics. [img]graemlins/verysad.gif[/img]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: BOTH Good and Shitty people believe in god.

But of course.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Chewbacca: Ummm, I wouldn't typify growing up isolated from behavioral conditioning as nature, and I wouldn't call teaching patterns of behavior that lead to guilt or shame nurture either. Babies and children are an excellent example of what it means to be innocent, and it is natural to nurture them. It is the conditioned abusive and shameful behaviors of the parent that are passed to the child that disrupt a persons natural innocences. Thats what I was driving towards in my post, in other words it is both nature as well as nurture. Religion or the lack of, has little bearing to the teaching, expressing and understanding of compassion, a quality anyone can have. Just my lil perspective...

I see [img]smile.gif[/img] Well I thought that the results of the studies were kind of interesting and did sort of prove that there was no apparent natural programming or spiritual characteristics in the babies. I am however appalled that there are people in this world that could do that to babies and even publish papers on it, and still be able to live with themselves. [/QUOTE]That is quite appalling! Perhaps they skipped the ethics part of their education.

Originally posted by Chewbacca: That is quite appalling! Perhaps they skipped the ethics part of their education.

Err, I thought those warm fuzzies were supposed to be there without ethics or morals and stuff like that. Maybe Im just a big wussy cause I can't stand to see children suffer.