HOW YA LIKE US NOW ?!?!?!?!?

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Nachtrafe: And if I dont believe in Jesus? To get rid of vermin sometimes you have to think, and even act like them. That's a moral decision that every person has to make for themselves. Imposing your morality on them is exactly what Bin Laden and Al Queda have done to the world. It is sick and wrong. (And please, please note that I'm not calling you a terrorist Fljotsdale. I have infinitely more respect for you than that. I just disagree with your view and I get just as up in arms when people start throwing around statements like "Can you imagine Jesus doing that?" as you do about jingoism.)

I think she made the comment about Jesus to Larry, because he does believe .

Cloudy

------------------


Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
CloudDragon of the OHF
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

[This message has been edited by Cloudbringer (edited 10-08-2001).]

[Bullvye]

I hope that a bunch of our Special Forces troops get ahold of some of the funny little ninja-like dresses that the poor women over there have to wear. Disguise themselves under them with a few MP-5's, sneak up on the the bad guys, and lift their skirts(so to speak) and suprise the snot out of them with a little close up "eye to eye" CQB gunfire. Maybe they would think the Afghan women had reached their breaking point!.LOL

[This message has been edited by Bullvye (edited 10-08-2001).]

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by G'kar: I think it was arrogant and narrow-minded not to pursue diplomacy to the end of reason, not 28 days or so's worth. Impatient and hot-headed. I have emailed my elected representatives letting them know this. Endangering any innocent lives makes us more like our enemies, in that we place a lesser value on them than our own. Vengance is a bucket with a hole in it, no matter how much you pour in, it only holds emptiness in the end.

OK, let me ask you this G'Kar...how much do you have to talk before you reach the "End of Reason"? The politics of appeasement(which, it seems to me, are what you are really preaching. Give the Taliban whatever they need to turn over Bin Laden so that noone has to fight or feel bad.") DO NOT WORK!!! I dont remember how old you are, so bear with me for a brief history lesson. Have you read about something called WWII? About a guy named Hitler? When he started his war, the whole world set out to appease him. Noone wanted to offend him because "He might do something violent, and that would be bad and people would feel unhappy, and other such drivel". Guess what happened? He had time to finish invading Poland, conquer France, and reinforce his position. Appeasement has never once worked. Diplomacy rarely. And never with a fanatic. Remember Kadafi(spelling is off, I know)? He harbored and encouraged terrorists. We told him to stop. He didn't, we tried diplomacy, still no go. We sent over a flight of planes and destroyed several strategic targets in his country. Guess what? He stopped. Amazing how that works out, no?


Oh, and just as an FYI for the room at large. We are NOT indiscriminatly bombing all of Afghanistan. The majority of ordinance sent has been Ship and sub launched Tomahawks, smart missles, and guided bombs. All aimed at strategic targets. Communications, power plants, anti aircraft batteries. The majority of things that are leaving the bombbays of planes are relief drops.

------------------
"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

[Pangur Ban]

Originally posted by Nachtrafe: And no, I dont believe that the deaths of civilians will trigger a world war. The US has obviously, loudly, and very publically been sending the innocents of this war every help that is in our power to give. Air-Dropped supplies. Food. Medicine. Weapons for the Northern Alliance. Yes, attacking is a gamble, but with that kind of stacking of the odds, the cards are bound to fall in our favor. [/B]

I wonder what the average Afgani civilian believes about these humanitarian offerings? The US is dropping bombs, missiles, AND food, medicine.

Add the effect and power of propaganda ... there must be some very confused people there.

On a personal note I doubt if humanitarian aid would outweigh the hatred and fear I would feel if someone was dropping missiles on my country !!

Pangur Ban

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Liliara: My Dio...are you a sleeper? You seem to admire the enemy quite a bit. Would you admire the AMERICANS if they did the same?

Woah!!! This is more than a bit out of line Liliara! I get nothing from Dio's posts that says he admires the terrorists. And, speaking from my own heart, I dont think that they are cowards either. Rabid fanatics. Ruthless killers. Murderers. Savages. But not cowards. Not stupid. And most certainly, not uncommited.

And Dio...equating Liliara with the Nazi's was out of line too. Besides...if you want to be truly accurate, call her a McCarthyite.

And no, I'm not a sleeper either.

------------------
"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Liliara: Hey you!!!!! It's been a good day...We haven't been outnumbered at all! It seems that many share the reasoning that we couldn't sit by and wait for the Taliban to quit stalling! Heck, even Pakistan gave up trying to reason with them! And you know what, we drop em medicine and food like some people wanted, and they still aren't happy with America! Go figure!

LOL...*HUGS* Good to see you too.

Unfortunately, the only true judge of this one will be history. And, knowing how most of what we currently call 'history' has been severely revised, we(the US and her allies) will most likely come out villians. We will capture or kill Bin Laden, destroy his terror camps, kill his soldiers, make organised terrorism harder and harder to accomplish, and we will still, somehow, come out the bad guy. But, those of us that lived through it, who believe in it, will know the truth.

------------------
"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by SSJ4Sephiroth: well we give Osama supplies and equipment during the Soviet invasion and he attacked us... thats gratitude for you! guess he didnt like our gifts, so we have to go shake his hand with one of those lil buzzer thingys... (bout 50,000 volts more on it, though)... sorry if this post seems a bit off, ive been kinda tired lately...

LOL...Yeah...a bit off, but the point is still well made.

[Liliara]

Originally posted by Pangur Ban: I wonder what the average Afgani civilian believes about these humanitarian offerings? The US is dropping bombs, missiles, AND food, medicine. Add the effect and power of propaganda ... there must be some very confused people there. On a personal note I doubt if humanitarian aid would outweigh the hatred and fear I would feel if someone was dropping missiles on my country !! Pangur Ban

Well, if you were a woman in Afghanistan who was beaten because you showed a miniscule portion of skin, who used to have a dignified job as a teacher or a doctor, but because of the Taliban could no longer feed your family because you weren't allowed to work, or a man taken out and shot because you didn't want to join the Taliban army, I would think you may look forward to a change of government. This is not the government these people started out with!

It would be apparent that there is a conflict between what is heard on the radio from the Taliban(television is not permitted) and the food and medicinal relief clearly shown on the packages to be American. At some point you would begin to doubt the oppresive forces.

As an Afghan citizen I might wonder why a nation that allegedly was waging war against Islam would bother to feed it's enemy.

Beneith it all, I think I would be hoping that a familiar world would once again be opened to me once it was over!

------------------

Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar

LH Member

And you never did think that it ever would happen again, in America did you? And you never did think that we'd ever get together again, but we damn sure fooled ya. We're walkin' real proud and we're talkin' real loud again, in America. And you never did think that it ever would happen again.... (Charlie Daniels)

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Liliara: Don't worry, Nachtrafe, I think that Flots said she is an atheist... I believe that she directed that mockingly towards those of us that do believe. I may be wrong, though, it wouldn't be the first time!

NP...Although, when I said "your morality" I didn't mean Lady F specifically. I meant religious zealots generally. Guess I should have clarified. Sorry.

You know...I thought I was wrong once...but I was mistaken.


Oh, and Angeleyes(Cloudy to the rest of ya! )..I know that's why she said it. It was the statement itself that irritated me, and the attitude of the overreligious that precipitates statements like it. Lady F and I have talked a bit about religion peripherally a couple of times, so I know her general views.
------------------
"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"


[This message has been edited by Nachtrafe (edited 10-08-2001).]

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Liliara: Well, if you were a woman in Afghanistan who was beaten because you showed a miniscule portion of skin, who used to have a dignified job as a teacher or a doctor, but because of the Taliban could no longer feed your family because you weren't allowed to work, or a man taken out and shot because you didn't want to join the Taliban army, I would think you may look forward to a change of government. This is not the government these people started out with! It would be apparent that there is a conflict between what is heard on the radio from the Taliban(television is not permitted) and the food and medicinal relief clearly shown on the packages to be American. At some point you would begin to doubt the oppresive forces. As an Afghan citizen I might wonder why a nation that allegedly was waging war against Islam would bother to feed it's enemy. Beneith it all, I think I would be hoping that a familiar world would once again be opened to me once it was over!

Well, I was going to respond to Pangur's post, but I think you summed it up beautifully Liliara. Thanks!

------------------
"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"