On Cowardice

[Yorick]

Originally posted by G'kar: Cult behavior, not satanism. You are unaware of what I refered to arent you? Well, I cant blame ya if you just dont know. We dont blame all muslims because a few are terrorists, now do we? Anyone who does as you describe and calls themself a satanist, doenst know what satanism really is, just as you dont.

Well, I could say the opposite and where would that get us? The reality is it was a Satanic group who did the deed I spoke about. I had a Satanist coworker with some "interesting" theories - which I shall not go into here - I have read biographies of two different ex-Satanists, (one from the head of the Satanic Illuminati in Great Britain) I have seen a public interview with the head of the Satanic Church in Australia and consider myself fairly up to speed on what Satanism and the Occult really is.

If you are a Satanist I would expect you to deny these horrific actions, so your refute comes as no suprise. If you are not a Satanist, then who are you to say I am wrong? I could throw your words back at you and say it is you who doesn't understand Satanism.


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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

Originally posted by Yorick: Well, I could say the opposite and where would that get us? The reality is it was a Satanic group who did the deed I spoke about. I had a Satanist coworker with some "interesting" theories - which I shall not go into here - I have read biographies of two different ex-Satanists, (one from the head of the Satanic Illuminati in Great Britain) I have seen a public interview with the head of the Satanic Church in Australia and consider myself fairly up to speed on what Satanism and the Occult really is.

This, I feel, must be said.

Yorick, you are out of line in this set of statements. G'kar has in no way stated he is,partakes in, or condones Satanism. Neither am/do I, but I do have insights that perhaps some do not. That is neither here nor there. You read two books, had a co-worker with odd (to you) ideas and saw an interview and now consider yourself some sort of expert on *all* matters satanic *and* occult. Wow, may I study under you?

Unfortunately there are as many denominations of this belief system as there are in Christianity. Can you honestly say that all Baptists believe and worship the exact same and that they in turn are exactly like the Presbyterians and the Episopalians and.....? No. I am *NOT* condoning Satanism or any other religion. It is not my right, responsibility or obligation, but I do claim some minor knowledge outside the mainstream Christian (and Satanist, BTW) propaganda.

I am apalled at the experiences you have described. However, this gives you no reason or right to (apparently) turn loose on someone who is trying to make a valid point that not all should be tarred with the same brush as the fringe. This is extremely dangerous--indeed, isn't that exactly what bin Laden and the Taliban (and others) do when they equate *all* Americans with capitalistic, oppresive, non-Muslim westerners who need be eradicated?

Of course, only my .02.

Garnet

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by G'kar: *resists the urge to stand up and clap out loud* I like the last four sentences in particular.

AHHHHHHHH...GETTING-SUCKED-IN-AGAIN---

*resists the urge to slap Dio and G'Kar*

Dio...you drive me nuts buddy. You are incredibly eloquent and insightful. But at the same time the most minutia driven, arrogant SOB I know! 2/3 or your posts in the last 3 or 4 days have been quibbles about defenitions or points so minor that they have absolutely no bearing on the discussion at hand. Or deliberate flamebaiting/bomb dropping.

As for your efforts to 'educate' your poor, mentally benighted fellow countrymen, that is so absolutely arrogant as to be unbelievable! You insult people, provoke them, belittle their intelligence or common sense, and then seem to get some perverse sense of satisfaction when they lose their temper, while, at the same time, bitchng about their attitudes and getting your nose out of joint. That is very hypocritical and again, terribly arrogant.

I can defenitely see the prosecuting attorney in you. That's not a joke or a shot BTW. I think its a reflection of the fact that you are probably very good at your job.


G'Kar...you shouldn't be encouraging him.


*Takes off flameproof silver suit, drops into lotus position, and prepares his mind for incipent hammering that is sure to follow*

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: What we did to the people of Iraq was criminal. Perhaps one million civilians died from our actions in the war and afterwards, from direct and indirect causes. Regarding your point about not really meaning to hit civilians with bombs: a brief digression to the law of Murder is informative. To be Murder, it is necessary that the defendant have some Intent to kill the victim. Now, that does not mean that the defendant has to act with the PURPOSE of killing the victim, it is only necessary for guilt that he act in the KNOWLEDGE that death will likely result. For example, say someone blows up a building, knowing that there are people inside. Say his only purpose is because he thinks the building is a complete eyesore, and he can tolerate its existence no longer. He has no desire whatsover to kill any people, only the building. That makes NO DIFFERENCE under the traditional law of Murder, and it shouldn't. It is enough for guilt that he acted in the knowledge that death would result. When you blow up buildings, or target civilian populated areas, it is a empty, hollow claim indeed that your purpose was not to kill the people inside. The phrase "collateral damage" was a popular american euphemism for hiding our war crimes in the Gulf War.

However...the Rules of Engagement in times of War are quite different. Heck. The defenition of murder in the UMJC is different that the civilian law one. You might want to read up on that before you start applying criminal(US) law to a military(International) situation. And peruse the Geneva Accords at the same time.

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by 250: hahaha! "Afhag ground fire troop, this is US fighter jet, my position is XXX, please hit me with anti air missle, I repeat, my position is XXX"

"US fighter, this is Taliban Anti Aircraft position Baker One. Could you please lower you flight altitude to 1000 feet? Our guns cant reach much higher than that"



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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by skywalker: I doubt it. Your post was a disgusting cheapshot. Mark

Why? Cuz it was aimed at Clinton? Some of the feces aimed at Bush is just as disgusting. Lets call a spade a spade Mark.

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

[skywalker]

No, because I found the comments about the sexual incident and the incident itself disgusting.

Nachtrafe! Are you baiting me?

It has been said here that we should not question Bush because he is our President and at this time we need to rally around him. Clinton's detractors have no problem bringing up his sick little escapades and that's okay, but no one may question Bush about his inability to form lucid statements off the cuff in front of cameras.

I was not pleased with Clinton's actions and those jokes and barbs are just old.

You don't have to like Clinton, well I don't have to like Bush. We are even.

Mark

[This message has been edited by skywalker (edited 10-10-2001).]

[Nachtrafe]

OK Mark, going to hit this one point by point for coherence(mine...I'm sleepy ).

Originally posted by skywalker: No, because I found the comments about the sexual incident and the incident itself disgusting. Nachtrafe! Are you baiting me?

No, I wasn't baiting you. I was just asking a question. I apologize if that's the way it came across. However, the comments about Clinton and his sexual escapades are based on documented fact. Most of the current slinging against Bush is based on silly opinions formed by and in the news media.

It has been said here that we should not question Bush because he is our President and at this time we need to rally around him. Clinton's detractors have no problem bringing up his sick little escapades and that's okay, but no one may question Bush about his inability to form lucid statements off the cuff in front of cameras.

True. I was one of the people saying that about Bush, and quite loudly, and I still feel that way. Clinton however, isn't our President, he is a *former* President who should be in jail for crimes too numerous to list. By your own admission, "his sick little escapades". As for Bush...how can you possibly form an opinion about him based on his ability to make witty and/or charming statements off the cuff. Glibness does NOT equate with intelligence and integrity.

I was not pleased with Clinton's actions and those jokes and barbs are just old. You don't have to like Clinton, well I don't have to like Bush. We are even. Mark

And just for the record, I have never, on any thread, or any board since 09-11-01, said that anyone had to like Bush. I just said he should be respected. He is the President, acting in defense of the nation. Big, big difference.

And, just for the record, its not that I dont like Clinton, its that I LOATHE Clinton! He is a criminal, a liar, and a philanderer(all facts, not my opinion BTW). He should be in jail. He got very lucky however and has good lawyers. However, ignoring all that, I just dont consider the scumsucker all that important anymore. He's the past. Bush is the future. I was just amused by 250's joke.

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

[skywalker]

Nachtrafe said:

"Most of the current slinging against Bush is based on silly opinions formed by and in the news media."

His ability to speak confidently before the camera has nothing to do with the News Media. Did you see him speak at a Press Conference yesterday? The one with Helmut Kohl? I saw ALL of it - not little sniping bits cut by the media. He could not form sentences without tripping over his tongue...he needs to be coached in Public Speaking. A big job for the President is being the Cheerleader for America. He needs to be at least a "good" orator, that is a way to gain respect from other nations. He used the same old tired Oaths he's been spouting since September 11th.

He also showed a level of anger about leaks that was a little embarrassing for the leader of the USA. I believe the leak he was so "over the top" angry about was the bit about "We are 100% sure we will be attacked by terrorists if we hit Afghaniatan." Was this really the leak? No duh...it sounds like a common sense statement to me.

I'm not going to tangle with you about Clinton VS Bush, but people bashed Clinton while he was President. I'm merely doing the same while Bush is in office. I am an American not a blindly following sheep, I observe and speak about how I perceive things. I may be wrong, but if I believe in what I say at least I think I'm right.

Mark

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Garnet: This, I feel, must be said. Yorick, you are out of line in this set of statements. G'kar has in no way stated he is,partakes in, or condones Satanism. Neither am/do I, but I do have insights that perhaps some do not. That is neither here nor there. You read two books, had a co-worker with odd (to you) ideas and saw an interview and now consider yourself some sort of expert on *all* matters satanic *and* occult. Wow, may I study under you? Unfortunately there are as many denominations of this belief system as there are in Christianity. Can you honestly say that all Baptists believe and worship the exact same and that they in turn are exactly like the Presbyterians and the Episopalians and.....? No. I am *NOT* condoning Satanism or any other religion. It is not my right, responsibility or obligation, but I do claim some minor knowledge outside the mainstream Christian (and Satanist, BTW) propaganda. I am apalled at the experiences you have described. However, this gives you no reason or right to (apparently) turn loose on someone who is trying to make a valid point that not all should be tarred with the same brush as the fringe. This is extremely dangerous--indeed, isn't that exactly what bin Laden and the Taliban (and others) do when they equate *all* Americans with capitalistic, oppresive, non-Muslim westerners who need be eradicated? Of course, only my .02. Garnet

Garnet, if I'm out of line you're out of line. You failed to mention my close friend who was gang raped as a child in Satanic rituals her father participated in, and failed to pick up my euphemistic reference to my co-workers "interesting" theories. They were disgusting and illegal, which is why I will not reference them.

So how does one find out about a religion? One reads relevant texts, talks to participants and relatives of adherants, and listens to public statements from the said religion.

If the religion you are talking about is not the same as what I am talking about, then it is obviously a different religion. Satanism is the religion I am talking about. Satanists had views and performed acts which are illegal, harmed others and are shrouded in secrecy. If not all have these views how would I know? I can only go on what I've seen and heard, and all of it that I've seen and heard makes me sick.

If there are Satanists who do not practice these things then perhaps they should consider giving themselves an additional name to remove themselves from the same brush. Christians and other faiths do. We can accurately say that Wahabism has visited destruction upon other muslims and the west, not all Islam. We can say that Jesuit Catholicism visited horrors upon Protestant "heretics" during the inquisition. We can say the Roman Catholicism embarked on crusades. You cannot say that Pentecostal Christians went on crusades and tortured other believers, nor that Sufism is violently extremist.

I decry rape. I is evil. If I offend in criticising those that ritualise it so be it.


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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!



[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 10-10-2001).]