Virginia bans homosexual civil unions

[Jerr Conner]

You can't choose who you love. If you could, then everyone would love the person that's sensible for them to love.

Love just happens.

I tried choosing to fall out of love with a guy in high school because I knew nothing could ever come of it. He's straight. But no matter what I did to stop myself from loving him, it didn't change my feelings.

I'm glad people can't choose who they love. Do you have any idea how boring it would be, love, if you could choose who you loved? All you can really choose is who you enter a relationship with.

If we could choose who we loved, then I bet the vast majority of people would choose the nice simple person, not the complicated one.

[Azred]

Ok, you've got me there; I'm up too late with a little too much pinot grigio in me. [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img]

True, one doesn't choose whom one will love. I have certainly been in relationships with those whom I did not love and have loved those with whom I have not been in relationships. (Those are long stories I will probably never get around to explaining. [img]graemlins/laugh3.gif[/img] )

Let me restate, then. Suppose you and I meet and fall in love. Would you prefer that I love you because I have to or because I simply do? Personally, I would want the person claiming to love me to love me because they just do. I want everyone, not just homosexuals, to be honest with themselves about their motivations (oh, my, what a lofty goal).

Now I'm wondering if that even made sense. [img]graemlins/1dizzy.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img]

[ 06-03-2004, 01:41 AM: Message edited by: Azred ]

[Jerr Conner]

I'd say I'd rather love someone because I just do, and vice-versa. Of course I also think it's a mixture of both, considering how demanding love can be.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Jerr Conner: You can't choose who you love. If you could, then everyone would love the person that's sensible for them to love. Love just happens. I tried choosing to fall out of love with a guy in high school because I knew nothing could ever come of it. He's straight. But no matter what I did to stop myself from loving him, it didn't change my feelings. I'm glad people can't choose who they love. Do you have any idea how boring it would be, love, if you could choose who you loved? All you can really choose is who you enter a relationship with. If we could choose who we loved, then I bet the vast majority of people would choose the nice simple person, not the complicated one.

I think you meant to say "I can't chose who I love". As you have pointed out, you can't. Or haven't learned how thus far.

However, I testified that I have, that it is possible, and that there are many humans who work it out, or learn how to use their consious mind to control their subconscious.

Therefore people DO choose who they love. Repeatedly. Anytime a person excercises commitement to squash a new flame from developing and reignite their marriage, they are doing exactly what I am saying.

Otherwise commited relationships would be a myth, blowing apart everytime love starts developing with a new person.

Simply because you haven't learned how doesn't mean others haven't.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Jerr Conner: I'd say I'd rather love someone because I just do, and vice-versa. .

Then commited long term relationships will forever be out of your grasp, and you and your partner will be at the whim and mercy of your feelings. Blown about like the wind.

Have you ever wondered why actors continually fall in love with their leading lady/man?
It's no accident, and has everything to do with what I'm saying.

[Gnarf]

Originally posted by Yorick: I think you meant to say "I can't chose who I love". As you have pointed out, you can't. Or haven't learned how thus far. [blah blah blah] Simply because you haven't learned how doesn't mean others haven't.

... and vica versa. Obviously "you choose who you love" is a no good argument then, as just some do.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Jerr Conner: Ok then explain this. I spent almost ten years of my life choosing to be attracted to girls yet I wasn't attracted to them. How come I couldn't make that choice? If attraction is a choice, prove me wrong and choose to be attracted to a guy. It's that simple

I never said I wasn't attracted to men. Hetrosexuality doesn't preclude finding men attractive. What do you call narcisism? If I find myself attractive for example, it stands to reason that I'll find any man that looks like me attractive also.

The choice is what do I entertain? What images do I remove from my mind if they arise? Mental dieting. For example, if I want to become obsessed with a person, the quickest way is to entertain fantasies and scenarios together. If I want to get over someone, I need the mental discipline to not entertain notions, hopes, pictures and dreams, but to remove them from my mind.

In my profession, I've worked with a lot of attractive people, men and women. Many available, many actively pursuing involvement. As flattering as it may be, I excercise the same mental discipline in maintaining a commited relationship that I do in maintaining hetrosexuality and refuse to give these things "life".

A partner of mine could NOT ask me to not be attracted to the many beautiful people - men and women - that I work with, but CAN ask me to excercise commitement, and not entertain that attraction. Practicing mental, emotional and physical fidelity.

That's the issue with porn for example. It's a real person you're fantasising over. They may not be there with you, but if you entertain fantasies with the person in the picture, you're practicing mental infidelity against your partner.

If it's that simple, choose to hate your parents. I never chose to love my parents. I just do. I can't even not love them when I'm mad at them! If love is such a choice, hate everything you love then. Prove me wrong.

Happiness is a perceptional choice. You choose to see what you have rather than what you've lost or may not have. You chose to be thankful for "the everyday" miracles that surround us. Love - especially forgiveness involves choice. Forgiveness is love with a cost. It is easy to love someone who's never hurt you, much harder to forgive, and put yourself in a vulnerable situation by loving them again.

Not all of us find it easy to love our parents Jerr. Any relationship, for it to weather storms and troubles, needs commitment or it breaks down. I love my parents because I have chosen to move past offenses, move beyond issues in my childhood for example. Choice. It would be easy to dwell on the negative. Dwell on the offense and have no love whatsoever. Love involves choice.

Note: It's not an "on/off" switch. You don't just say "right I'm going to love this person" and it magically happens.

You make a series of choices over the things you can control and move towards the intent. In a relationship what can you control?

Time together
Open communication
Shared experiences
Verbalisation of affection, acceptance and hope.
Restriction of negatives - criticisms, attacks, seperation, alienating factors, fears, or relationally destructive scenarios.
Management of imagination and hopes for future.

It doesn't happen overnight. Love grows.

For ten year I chose to be attracted to women yet I wasn't attracted to them. To be blunt, they never once aroused me. Explain why. I made the 'choices' to be heterosexual, yet I wasn't attracted, explain why.

Impotence in men has often become a problem if the man feels "pressure" to perform. It becomes a cyclic problem, where the pressure to be hard makes flacidity even more likely, thus increasing the pressure, thus increasing certainty of flacidity.

This is with hetrosexual men, in love with their wife. Arousal and attraction are not conjoined. The more pressure is put on arousal, the less likely it will occur.

I have no idea of your story, but if you put any pressure on yourself to feel aroused, you can bet it contibuted to ensuring you wouldn't be.

However, I have experience a number of occaisions where individuals have become not only more attractive, but also far more sexually arousing. Once I have chosen to allow myself to love particular women, they have ended up being so much more sexually attractive than I imagined possible. The loving relationship created the sexual attraction, not the other way around.

Conversely, there have been women who I've initially found sexually attractive, who become severe turn-offs due to personality issues, or circumstances. We can choose to overlook the turnoffs or dwell on them and allow them to influence or like or distaste for them.

But, sex does not, I repeat, does not dictate one's lifestyle. Prove how it does.

1.The destruction of an entire family lifestyle (ie. it ceases functionality) due to one sexual relationship outside the marriage.

2.The pursuit of repeated sexual encounters leads to lifestyle choices such as clubs, bars, alcohol, clothes and appearance choices etc etc etc. Lifestyle.

3.The pursuit of celibacy leads to lifestyle choices that will not put a person in a position of "temptation". Exhibit A: The numerous monasteries and nunneries that have existed over the centuries.

As far as definition goes, then let's expand it to sexual attraction. I'm not sexually attracted to women, never have, and haven't met one yet that's sexually attractive to me.

So. Proves nothing. How old are you? There have been numerous times in my life when I've found no-one sexually attractive. Waiting for a "right person" takes time. Additionally, as I said, once I chose to enter certain relationships, and got rid of my fears and other barriers, the woman became unbelievably sexually attractive. Blew my mind.

If sexual attraction is a choice, then why not simply prove me wrong by choosing to be sexually attracted to a guy that isn't you?

Because I am in a commited relationship and don't want to ruin it by entertaining attractions for ANYONE else.

As far as committed relationships go, these are not simply, as you put it, 'choosing to be attracted to someone'. If it was, then a lot of people would be in a committed relationship.

A lot of people are....

A committed relationship involves a major committment to stay with that one person. Commitment is the only true choice you can really make. Despite the fact that a person is in a commited relationship, it doesn't automatically equal "will only be attracted to one person". [/QB]

How do you think the person stays in love? Ever heard people equate relationships to gardens? Staying in love requires work. The dividends are unbelievably wonderful however.

[ 06-03-2004, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Gnarf: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: I think you meant to say "I can't chose who I love". As you have pointed out, you can't. Or haven't learned how thus far. [blah blah blah] Simply because you haven't learned how doesn't mean others haven't.

... and vica versa. Obviously "you choose who you love" is a no good argument then, as just some do. [/QUOTE]Being unaware of the choice doesn't mean it isn't made. He can't tell me I'm not excercising choice, as I consciously am. However, I am now aware of things I had no awareness of.

How many times do you hear of people continually loving "the wrong people" for example. Falling again and again into co-dependant relationships.

People can and do work their way out of habitual co-dependency by changing who they are attracted to.

A healed person, is no longer attracted to the wounds they once had, whereas, two unhealed co-dependants will find each other in a crowded room without fail.

The unhealed co-dependants are unaware of the choices they are making, whereas the healed co-dependant is aware, and has modified their behavious so they are not in the position where they make a disasterous choice.

[Gnarf]

Being unaware of the choice doesn't mean it isn't made.

It doesn't mean it is either.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Azred: quote: Originally posted by Jerr Conner: If it's such a developmental choice, then why exactly did it develop in me when I tried to develop straight crushes? Why did it develop in a highly homophobic environment? How did it develop when none of my peers, until my mid-teens (And that was just one person, for about a year and a half) and then my early twenties, were gay?

Without a much more complete life history and a degree in either psychology or a specialization in psychiatry, I don't think anyone here could answer that question for you.
On the other hand, maybe the temptation of "forbidden fruit" led you down that particular path.

Suppose you and I were to meet, get to know each other, and fall in love. Would you rather have me love you because I have to (genetic mandate) or because I choose to?

I don't have anything against homosexuals. I do have difficulties with the rationalizations people have for their actions or the vacillations of fence-sitters--pick one side or the other. [/QUOTE]Well said.

If you're intensely trying to avoid something, because you're focussing on it, it is more likely it will occur. You're giving it mental time.

I once was so worried I'd have an affair with a beautiful married woman I knew. I spent so much time worried about it, trying to control my head, and make sure it didn't happen, it just made it worse and worse. It only faded once I stopped worrying about it, and didn't give it the "thought time". Most importantly I changed what I was able to control - time together, and conversation time. Without those elements, it faded quickly before it actualised. (Thank God)

It's like driving. You will naturally start edging towards whatever you're focussing on.

The forbidden fruit element is a very good point. Thanks mate. [img]smile.gif[/img]