They're at it again...

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by WillowIX: There's a HUGE difference between 'advocate' and 'what if'.

Indeed there is. That's why I said advocate/suggest/muse over. 3 diminishing degrees of consideration you see

Originally posted by The Hierophant: who said anything about peace Magik?

Well we WERE talkign about peace/war and Israel and Palestine...but I confess I may have missed a derailment somewhere along the line.

Originally posted by The Hierophant: quote: Originally posted by antryg: Absolutely correct and history shows this to be true. If Chamberlain had been allowed to continue his diplomacy there would not have been a war in Europe or maybe WW II at all. Diplomacy will always work because humans are basically good and never want to be aggresive.

Well, I'm surprised that it took 95 posts for a WW2 analogy to be thrown out into the open, good restraint there Antryg
People, do as you feel you have to. But if you are going to advocate/suggest/muse over the eradication of an entire people (ie: 'Let Israel wipe the Palestinians off the face of the Earth with American-subsidised weapons and equipment'), at least do them the courtesy of going to their land and experiencing their ways firsthand. Get to know them a little, learn some of their language, partake in a few of their customs. If you still want them wiped out after that, then so be it, either 'they' or you must be incredibly evil for you to desire such a thing afterward. Having ill opinions of people based on what you've heard through the grapevine is one thing, to support genocide based upon these sorts of prejudiced assumptions is another thing entirely.
Don't be just another citizen, sitting at home, relying on censored news bulletins for your worldly info. Be a human, see the world and it's people for yourself. Citizenship is a social poison, a network of psychological chains, binding you to prejudiced loyalty and hatred toward people you have never met. Don't be a citizen, be a human. [/QUOTE]
I have on occasion to have been there...my thoughts....I prefer the use of toilet paper to the local tradition. I prefer deoderant to none. I prefer fixed prices to haggeling, I prefer less deadly religious oppression, and I prefer that thieves not have their hands cut off, I also prefer that women not be treated as property, I prefer to drink alcohol if I wish, I prefer not to have relations with my camel and I prefer western civilization to that of the middle east.

Now if you note..I did say that these were just preferences...many people no doubt have different preferances.

to emphasize one of my all time favorite examples of something I don't like from the arab nations. (this is a quote and not my personal observation) "While on a support mission I noticed that the women would remain a few paces behind their men. The man boldly leading the way through the streets. On a followup mission I noticed that now the women lead the way and not the men. I asked one of our local interpreters what the deal was. His answer was one word."

Landmines!.

[ 08-25-2003, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: People, do as you feel you have to. But if you are going to advocate/suggest/muse over the eradication of an entire people (ie: 'Let Israel wipe the Palestinians off the face of the Earth with American-subsidised weapons and equipment'), at least do them the courtesy of going to their land and experiencing their ways firsthand. Get to know them a little, learn some of their language, partake in a few of their customs. If you still want them wiped out after that, then so be it, either 'they' or you must be incredibly evil for you to desire such a thing afterward. Having ill opinions of people based on what you've heard through the grapevine is one thing, to support genocide based upon these sorts of prejudiced assumptions is another thing entirely. Don't be just another citizen, sitting at home, relying on censored news bulletins for your worldly info. Be a human, see the world and it's people for yourself. Citizenship is a social poison, a network of psychological chains, binding you to prejudiced loyalty and hatred toward people you have never met. Don't be a citizen, be a human.

Ugh! man this seriously sounds like failed hippy speak from a 1960's socialist rally. I mean, if this is your actual belief and all...good luck. but just the sound of saying those words gives me the willies [img]smile.gif[/img] Do you really believe that all us citizens are being programed to hate? wow....I wish my government was that efficient...mine can't even keep the trains on time.

[Skunk]

I have on occasion to have been there...my thoughts....I prefer the use of toilet paper to the local tradition.

When you show this much respect to local tradition, it should come as no surprise to you when your thoughts are reciprocated..

I prefer deoderant to none.

Personally, I prefer folk who wash frequently to those who are determined to go without washing for days in the mistaken belief that, with deodorant, no-one will notice.

I prefer fixed prices to haggeling,

Fair enough - but haggling goes on where-ever you are. I would be surprised to find one western home-owner who didn't haggle the price - or someone who didn't haggle with a car dealer...

I prefer less deadly religious oppression,

There is almost no religious oppression in the middle-east - there may be cultural oppression - but religious oppression is no more common there than it is in the west.

and I prefer that thieves not have their hands cut off,

But crime (especially violent and sexual) is *much* lower than in most western countries - which has prompted at least one nation to instigate equally harsh measures, like the "3 strikes and your out":

"If an individual is charged with growing a single marijuana plant, and he has on his record two qualifying prior convictions, he's dog meat," said Jerome P. Mullins, a San Jose, Calif., criminal defense lawyer who has had several clients prosecuted under the state three-strikes law.

"He's looking at 25-to-life for growing a plant."
http://www.amend3strikes.org/_news/040102.htm

I also prefer that women not be treated as property,

So does the middle east - that's why pornography, strip joints etc. etc. are outlawed there and why women in islamic countries have *never* been considered as property - unlike in the west.

I prefer to drink alcohol if I wish,

Of course - but it is a drug that leads to violent disorder and thousands of deaths every year (not least as a result of drink drive accidents).

I prefer not to have relations with my camel

??????

and I prefer western civilization to that of the middle east.

Fair enough and although you are reading this page in greek letters, I bet that you are still using arabic numbers...

to emphasize one of my all time favorite examples of something I don't like from the arab nations. (this is a quote and not my personal observation) "While on a support mission I noticed that the women would remain a few paces behind their men. The man boldly leading the way through the streets. On a followup mission I noticed that now the women lead the way and not the men. I asked one of our local interpreters what the deal was. His answer was one word." Landmines!.

This emphasises something that I don't like about western nations - ignorance.

In poor societies, the only way to make money is through heavy manual labour. If the man dies, the family will literally starve to death - if the woman dies, the family will continue to survive. Harsh realities exist in harsh societies.

As for women walking behind men, this was a cultural tradition (not religious) - the idea behind it was for the man to keep ahead and provide protection to the women from those who would harass, to act as a shield in busy crowds so that the woman would not be 'accidently' touched by male members of the crowd, etc.

Finally, there have been more female heads of state in muslims countries than there have been in western ones - some western countries have never even had a female president/prime minister! Talk about inequality, eh?

[johnny]

originally posted by Skunk There is almost no religious oppression in the middle-east - there may be cultural oppression - but religious oppression is no more common there than it is in the west.

You never seem to stop amazing me. Now if you'll excuse me, i'll go laugh my ass off for a while.

[johnny]

originally posted by Skunk As for women walking behind men, this was a cultural tradition (not religious) - the idea behind it was for the man to keep ahead and provide protection to the women from those who would harass, to act as a shield in busy crowds so that the woman would not be 'accidently' touched by male members of the crowd, etc.

Ooooh, good thinking, the knight in his shining armour clears the way for his lovely lady so she may pass unharmed. But answer me this: why is the knight 20 feet in front of her ? would that be protection enough ? Did it cross his mind that black knights like me, might sneak up on his lady from behind to stare at her bottom ?

Nice story Skunk, unfortunately it doesn't hold any water. It's not about being protective, it's about being the head of the family. Why is a muslim female never sitting next to her husband in the car ? He can protect her better when she is in the back ?

BWAHAHAHAHA

[ 08-25-2003, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: johnny ]

Umm Skunk....Johnny basicly summed up what I had to say....just a couple of things....

The Toilet paper issue is a valid concern, not just from a sanitary and health perspective, my preference has nothing to do with how I would and did treat individuals I interacted with. I seriously doubt the fact that I had my own toilet paper in my duffle bag offended anyone...unless they had X-ray vision.

Deoderant: I do not care how often you wash, if it is hot and humid out, then you will stink. Deoderant is a modern civilization social enhancer. Also, the use of deoderant does not prevent frequent washing. Personally I get a lot of flack for two showers a day and many hand and face washings in between.

Crime: Your ocmments are unsupported by the facts and by statistics. Although I would mention that some things that normal westerners would define as a crime (stoning your daughter because she engaged in pre-marital relations comes to mind) or beating your wife with a cane....are perfectly ok in many Arabic societies.

Religious Oppression: To emphasize what Johnny said,, BWAAAAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHA.....perhaps you might want to rethink that comment.

So anyhooo just my follow up comments on MY preferences and your response.

[Chewbacca]

Does anyone else see a bunch of cultural, racial, and religous stereotyping cropping up in this thread? I do. Booo!!!!!!!!

[Timber Loftis]

Chewie, while a generalization is not applicable to any single individual, they can be useful when discussing the behaviors of groups as a whole. So, pereception/stereotype, generalizations, and statistical proof or disproof of each can and should be taken into account when discussing social phenonmena.

"As good sociologists, we make generalizations about groups, not individuals." -- Berger.

So, while they may very well sound like stereotypes, social facts such as "Japan has the highest suicide rate" or "African Americans drink more Kool-Aid per capita than other ethnic groups" are quite relevant in a social study context. I try to limit my uses to those that are fair social patterns, and I would of course suggest everyone else do the same.

But some stereotypes also happen to be true. Of the group of course -- not a particular individual.