05-21-2002, 02:52 PM | #101 | |
Zartan
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Crude example, but you may as well quote that, it is equally meaningful. EDITING because I missed a bit which makes my post look stupid [img]tongue.gif[/img] : We were not talking about accidents, which can happen in any number of ways with any number of items, but about murder. Yes, murderers with a gun are more likely to use that gun to commit murder, but if they didn't have a gun there are plenty of other dangerous items they could use instead! Owning a gun does NOT make someone more likely to be a murderer. [ 05-21-2002, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: Epona ]
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05-21-2002, 03:10 PM | #102 | |
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By the way, there is NO such thing as a Right wing agenda....every group has its own agenda, the right wing is no more organized than any other group of a hundred million or so people, and you can also toss out the BS about the "Vast right wing conspiracy" too.[/QB][/QUOTE]The whole process of lobbying is an obstacle to true democracy; It allows people with money to gain political influence above and beyond those who do not, thus subverting the whole idea of a democracy. BTW if you think there is no such thing as right wing agenda, just look at some of the stuff that nutcase loony john ashcroft has tried to get passed, he wants to make it easier to amend the constitution AND he wants to make it illegal to burn the American flag.[/QB][/QUOTE] I like some if not all of Ashcrofts proposals, but that being said, he is not a group...he is an individual with his own aims that APPARENTLY are not in line with most conservatives (the right wing) so he hasn't gotten most of what he has proposed done. saying there is a Right wing agenda or a right wing conspiracy indicates that all or most of the people composeing the "right wing" are in agreement and working together..which is not the case. |
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05-21-2002, 03:19 PM | #103 | |
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In 1994, however, coinciding with the implementation of Brady, the trend reversed and gun-related crime has been dropping faster than the violent crime rate ever since. The Center used this information to estimate the number of lives saved since Brady took effect – not because the crime rate was falling, but because the percentage of violent crimes committed with guns was falling. The results of this analysis provide compelling evidence that the Brady Law is saving lives by taking guns out of crime: from 1994 through 1998, an estimated 9,368 fewer people died than expected because the percentage of robberies and assaults committed with firearms fell each year after reaching a peak of 42.4% of robberies and 25.1% of aggravated assaults in 1993. Furthermore, from 1991 through 1993, an estimated 3,105 more people lost their lives in gun-related crime than expected because the proportion of assaults and robberies that involved guns increased each year from 1990 through 1993. More Gun control, means less people die.[/QB][/QUOTE]Zimring and the Brady group are left wing extremists that purposely skew the statistics to suit their needs and if necessary they invent the numbers they want. Zimring AND the Brady bunch both lump all deaths from handguns into thier death statistics and ignore self defense, law enforcement incidents and accidental death as being different from murder. So I would take their numbers and the NRA's numbers and say they cancel out. Another thing that Anti-gun lobbyists never do is take into account the vast differences in locale. Inner city gun ownersdhip and owners and rural non city ownership and onwers are completely different things. The vassssst majority of the USA is low density population open territory, with most of the 300 million people in the country crammed into a few dozen cities.....mostly coastal. It is another case of apple sand oranges, and like I said, the VAST and by that I mean greater than 99% of the people who own guns, never use them illegally, and do not commit murder, and do not accidently kill loved ones due to mishandling. The accidental deaths are rare and are exceptions not the norm, the criminals, dont have their guns legally, so new laws only affect those people who do NOT commit crimes.... |
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05-21-2002, 03:20 PM | #104 | |
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Crude example, but you may as well quote that, it is equally meaningful. EDITING because I missed a bit which makes my post look stupid [img]tongue.gif[/img] : We were not talking about accidents, which can happen in any number of ways with any number of items, but about murder. Yes, murderers with a gun are more likely to use that gun to commit murder, but if they didn't have a gun there are plenty of other dangerous items they could use instead! Owning a gun does NOT make someone more likely to be a murderer.[/QUOTE]Thats what I was trying to indicate with my statistics about hamburgers.... |
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05-21-2002, 03:21 PM | #105 | |
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Also Guns & deaths & murder is a perfectly valid correlation (given that guns cause all of these), the example you cite is a bad analogy. [ 05-21-2002, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Dramnek_Ulk ] |
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05-21-2002, 03:24 PM | #106 | |
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And do you realise that banning people from burning the America flag is an attack on free speech? |
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05-21-2002, 03:24 PM | #107 | |
Zartan
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05-21-2002, 03:28 PM | #108 | |
Zartan
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05-21-2002, 03:29 PM | #109 |
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i see flag burners as idiots. first off, if you hate America so much as to burn its flag, then you give up your rights as an American, thus freedom of speach is out the window. flag burners need to be shot, locked up, or sent to a country that doesnt have freedoms like America has, so they can see what they are taking for granted. these people only want attention, so they can be "heard" i say to hell with that, if you live here, then you dont burn the flag. if you live elsewhere and do it, then you are just jealous of the freedoms that America has to offer. that is just my opinion however.
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05-21-2002, 03:30 PM | #110 | |
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There always going to be people who abuse a lot of things, the answer to fixing that rpoblem is not to try and babysit people who do not abuse them, go after the offenders and punish them...don't send them to retirement resorts with cable tv and well equipped gyms, make them suffer, make them endure pain, that will deter the majority..and those who don't need to be excised from society anyway. |
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