Taking out the trash in Yemen!!!

[Gandar]

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: quote: Originally posted by Timber Loftis: The NY Times reported there were 2 top Al Queda members in the car, one of them in BL's inner circle. If we can't find terrorists where they hide, how can we ever stop them? What would you have the military do Barry? Only fire on terrorists in the act of commiting terrorism? Trotting off to far-flung places to arrest folks is not always an option and endangers American lives. This is war, they were members of Al-Queda. In war, there are sides, you see. Like in football, if you wear the opposing jersey, you are on the other team. No one stops to ask if you're going to score a goal before they tackle you. War has been declared. They wore the other uniform. Nuff said. Besides, there is something extremely appealing about taking to violence to them for a change. Sept. 11. Bali bombings. Failed bus bombings. Etc. Etc. It sucks to just sit back a take a beating forever.

The last paragraph is just the kind of problem I'm talking about. Everyone on one side gets annoyed by the attacks from the other side, so they decide to attack back! No prizes for guessing what the other side then do in retaliation. I hope we enjoy this piece of "taking the violence to them" for a while as it will almost certainly cost lives. And not just inconsequential Arab lives either, important White American ones possibly.

What I would have the West do is stop supporting Israel in its blitz on the Palestinians. Stop supporting dictators of any kind in order to gain a foothold against another dictator. Stop imposing sanctions on nations. Stop killing people in a way that looks, whatever the reality, extremely bad. And then I think the West should start adhering to UN policy, and actually listening occasionally to the Arab opposition. Just my opinion though.

And Ziroc, because we don't support a military strike against a target without proof we are the naive ones? Seems a bit awry to me... Surely the world-weary response to this event would be that we really don't know for certain what information the decision to strike was made on. Not that we should trust people, as to not trust would be naive.

EDITED, for clarification of my post. It got a bit weird and reading it back I wasn't entirely sure people would be able to make out what the hell I actually meant... Seems to have answered your question too Ziroc, or at least I hope so.[/QUOTE]Ah, now the cat is out of the bag!!! The problem is that it was "important White Americans" that carried out this strike!!! In one statement, you have shown that you are not only Anti-American, but racist also. It would be pefectly OK to fight back if the retaliation was for attacks against a country that was not the U.S. and did not have any caucasian citizens, right? This explains your constant defense of the terrorists and condemnation of America's RIGHTEOUS retaliation.

Originally posted by Moiraine: About the "War on terrorism" issue, here are some people, many of them from the US, who don't share MagiK's views at all (Artists and Writers Oppose Expanding War On Terrorism" petition).

My view? Im flattered you give me credit for being in some way responsible for such a common view [img]smile.gif[/img] You do know, that I never intimated that any one should have to agree with me. I just challenge them on their reasoning on occasion [img]smile.gif[/img]

I also have to say that a national call for names that has only 327 doesn't seem to carry much weight for me. Not even if Babs Streisand herself got up and sang a song about this would it make the things those people are saying any truer.

[ 11-05-2002, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: What I would have the West do is stop supporting Israel in its blitz on the Palestinians. Stop supporting dictators of any kind in order to gain a foothold against another dictator. Stop imposing sanctions on nations. Stop killing people in a way that looks, whatever the reality, extremely bad. And then I think the West should start adhering to UN policy, and actually listening occasionally to the Arab opposition. Just my opinion though. You are very closed minded on the Israeli issue, dude, the Israelis are almost always only reacting to violence done to them. They have a constant stream of suicide nut jobs attacking innocent men women and children. If the Israeli's wanted to take the west bank from the arabs they are more than well enough equipped to wipe out every single palistinian there, not only that, they have the ability to defeat the combined might of all the armies surrounding them, the mere factt hat they havn't slaughtered every arab within the lands they now hold, shows that they are not the one perpetrating the violence here, but are only defending themselves. (err see the zionism thread [img]smile.gif[/img] ) .

[ 11-05-2002, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Gandar:Ah, now the cat is out of the bag!!! The problem is that it was "important White Americans" that carried out this strike!!! In one statement, you have shown that you are not only Anti-American, but racist also. It would be pefectly OK to fight back if the retaliation was for attacks against a country that was not the U.S. and did not have any caucasian citizens, right? This explains your constant defense of the terrorists and condemnation of America's RIGHTEOUS retaliation.

Can we puh-lease quit with the racist accusations. It happened to me, and now Barry. Pointing fingers is easy. Though I wholeheartedly disagree with Barry on this issue, I think his statement is an implication that Americans in power might be racist. Gandar then turns and "AHA!" points the finger back. This is truly annoying in both instances.

Any intelligent person will admit that while you cannot make stereotypes applicable on an individual level, you can however make generalizations about the behaviors of groups of people - this is Socialogy's fundamental tenet.

Originally posted by Spelca: I don't think what he wanted to say was that terrorism is okay. What he is trying to say is that the terrorists didn't just wake up one morning and think 'oh, let's go kill some civilians'. They had reasons for killing. The reasoning they use is not the opression of the west, it is that we are infidels, its a religious term, you see we do not follow the one true faith and as such must be purged from the lands. Not just the middle east, you see Islam (the religion of "love and peace") is all about killing those who are different from you. Ignoring their threat is only giving them time to grow more powerful and to recruit more members, then unless you have converted to Islaam you will be slaughtered. Its allthere in the Quran (or however you spell it) you know the Bible has its share of xenophobia in it, but you don't generally see mobs of christian suicide bombers running around killing civilians. (I said usually) and Im pretty sure there is no christian movement to wipe all other belief systems off the face of the earth. Oh by the way, they don't jst hate christians either, Im pretty sure they have just as big a desire to eliminate wiccans, pagans and the followers of Ray And no, I'm not saying that justifies what they did. But without 'treating' the reason, there will be more and more terrorists. You cannot just wipe out terrorism by killing all terrorists. If nothing else, by killing all of terrorists, and not trying to capture them and give them a trial, you make more people angry, which means you have more terrorists on your hands. Look at Palestina. Lots of those suicidal bombings are made by family members who were angry that their relative got killed by the Israeli. So we need to make sure that these people won't get to have more 'sources' to get angry. We should make sure that the conflict between Israel and Palestina is solved peacefully, as an example. Bombing towns will not help... because there will always be civilian victims, which will make even more people angry...

[ 11-05-2002, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Originally posted by Gandar: Ah, now the cat is out of the bag!!! The problem is that it was "important White Americans" that carried out this strike!!! In one statement, you have shown that you are not only Anti-American, but racist also. It would be pefectly OK to fight back if the retaliation was for attacks against a country that was not the U.S. and did not have any caucasian citizens, right? This explains your constant defense of the terrorists and condemnation of America's RIGHTEOUS retaliation.

Well if anyone thinks that it was only whites that were involved, they better check the make up and composition of the US Government and Military forces, there are many people of color serving their country. the US is not a White only fan club

[ 11-05-2002, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Wurm]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Gandar: Ah, now the cat is out of the bag!!! The problem is that it was "important White Americans" that carried out this strike!!! In one statement, you have shown that you are not only Anti-American, but racist also. It would be pefectly OK to fight back if the retaliation was for attacks against a country that was not the U.S. and did not have any caucasian citizens, right? This explains your constant defense of the terrorists and condemnation of America's RIGHTEOUS retaliation.

Well if anyone thinks that it was only whites that were involved, they better check the make up and composition of the US Government and Military forces, there are many people of color serving their country. the US is not a White only fan club[/QUOTE]In fact there are more "Minorities" Serving in the armed forces as there are "White" people. (Former US Army )

[Timber Loftis]

[quote]Originally posted by MagiK:

The reasoning they use is not the opression of the west, it is that we are infidels, its a religious term, you see we do not follow the one true faith and as such must be purged from the lands. Not just the middle east, you see Islam (the religion of "love and peace") is all about killing those who are different from you. Ignoring their threat is only giving them time to grow more powerful and to recruit more members, then unless you have converted to Islaam you will be slaughtered. Its allthere in the Quran

Is this jest? If not, I think you'll have a hard time defending it. Most anything you want can be read into a religious text. You mentioned the Bible - weren't the crusades justified biblically according to one-time Western thought? I mean, riding to the Holy Land on horses, saying "this is mine" and all that crap. Applying one or a few groups' interpretation of the Koran to all Muslims is flawed, I think.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: The reasoning they use is not the opression of the west, it is that we are infidels, its a religious term, you see we do not follow the one true faith and as such must be purged from the lands. Not just the middle east, you see Islam (the religion of "love and peace") is all about killing those who are different from you. Ignoring their threat is only giving them time to grow more powerful and to recruit more members, then unless you have converted to Islaam you will be slaughtered. Its allthere in the Quran Is this jest? If not, I think you'll have a hard time defending it. Most anything you want can be read into a religious text. You mentioned the Bible - weren't the crusades justified biblically according to one-time Western thought? I mean, riding to the Holy Land on horses, saying "this is mine" and all that crap. Applying one or a few groups' interpretation of the Koran to all Muslims is flawed, I think.

TL I was speaking of the 21st century not the crusades and dark ages. I did point out that the Bible had its xenophobic parts but as of today there is no worldwide christian Jihad that I am aware of.

[Gandar]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: quote: Originally posted by Gandar:Ah, now the cat is out of the bag!!! The problem is that it was "important White Americans" that carried out this strike!!! In one statement, you have shown that you are not only Anti-American, but racist also. It would be pefectly OK to fight back if the retaliation was for attacks against a country that was not the U.S. and did not have any caucasian citizens, right? This explains your constant defense of the terrorists and condemnation of America's RIGHTEOUS retaliation.

Can we puh-lease quit with the racist accusations. It happened to me, and now Barry. Pointing fingers is easy. Though I wholeheartedly disagree with Barry on this issue, I think his statement is an implication that Americans in power might be racist. Gandar then turns and "AHA!" points the finger back. This is truly annoying in both instances.

Any intelligent person will admit that while you cannot make stereotypes applicable on an individual level, you can however make generalizations about the behaviors of groups of people - this is Socialogy's fundamental tenet.[/QUOTE]TL, read his post and you will notice that he used the term "White Americans", not "Pompous Americans" or "Imperialistic Americans". It implies that our feelings would not be as strong if they were "Black Americans" or "Hispanic Americans" or any other race. I'm sorry if this annoys you, but when someone singles out one race to aim their criticism at, it reeks of racism.