Views on death penalty

[Rokenn]

Prison labor is also great way to keep downward presure on American wages. Between that and off-shoring we will all be making 20k a year soon!

[Oblivion437]

Off-shoring isn't as bad as some make it out to be. They aren't the kind of jobs you'd want to work at anyways... You think they set up a circuit or precision parts factory in China? You can't work that, the Chinese work force doesn't come close to the Western laborers in technical competence and overall productivity. It may take a while, but companies will soon learn; We're worth the money.

[wellard]

Originally posted by Yorick: I still think prisons should be hooked up to the electricity grid, and convict labour used to create power for society.

I'm left with this vision of giant hamster wheels with prisoners using them [img]graemlins/evillaughter2.gif[/img] eeeeerrmmm .. sorry ...back to the serious stuff ...cough

[Timber Loftis]

On that note, let's put half the population in jail and wages will go up.

It's voodoo economics you're using, Rokenn.

Let's not forget that people in prison cost us tax dollars -- if we could utilize them as a resource it could reduce the governmental burden on society. Besides, they would be paid minimal amounts. Prisoners who make license plates get paid in most states. This minimal amount of money, over years, can give the prisoner a bit of cash in his pocket when he gets out, so he will be less likely to become an immediate burden on society. It does take time to rent a place and find a job -- and it takes at least some up-front money.

Besides, I respond to this the same way I respond to the argument that it costs more to execute a man than keep him in prison for life: Economics should not be the deciding factor in what is an appropriate criminal punishment.

[ 03-11-2004, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Rokenn]

Originally posted by Oblivion437: Off-shoring isn't as bad as some make it out to be. They aren't the kind of jobs you'd want to work at anyways... You think they set up a circuit or precision parts factory in China? You can't work that, the Chinese work force doesn't come close to the Western laborers in technical competence and overall productivity. It may take a while, but companies will soon learn; We're worth the money.

Tell that to all the programmers that have seen thier coding jobs shipped to India. Why pay an american software engineer 80k a year when you can get an Indian to do it for 20k a year?

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Oblivion437: Off-shoring isn't as bad as some make it out to be. They aren't the kind of jobs you'd want to work at anyways... You think they set up a circuit or precision parts factory in China? You can't work that, the Chinese work force doesn't come close to the Western laborers in technical competence and overall productivity. It may take a while, but companies will soon learn; We're worth the money.

Tell that to accountants, medical records preparers, and computer support people in New Dehli.

[Oblivion437]

Originally posted by Rokenn: Tell that to all the programmers that have seen thier coding jobs shipped to India. Why pay an american software engineer 80k a year when you can get an Indian to do it for 20k a year?

If you want weekend slap-together jobs done, go to India, but codebases for things as complex as Sharman Networks, a computer game, artificial intelligence constructs, or an OLD language, require highly trained, very skilled programmers. The Indian work force is educated, and happens to be in close competition, but they only outsource bottom-rung jobs to Indian programmers anyways. Also, the fact that the 60 grand is made up for when you don't have to hire someone else or that person again to fix bugs or re-write the software to make it more efficient. The kind of programming you hire the Indians for isn't high-end stuff.

Yes Timber, I've been living my whole life for the dream of preparing medical records and doing accounting. I guess I'll have to turn to racketeering and contract killing now that my plans are bust!

[Timber Loftis]

The point, Oblivion, is that they are white-collar jobs people planned 4 or more years of school around attaining, and telling those professionals "get another job" is pretty ludicrous. While I recognize that globalization will necessarily result in the reallocation of labor along more economically utilitarian veins, I also note that the reallocation period is very painful for the generation of workers affected by it, causing a significant portion of an entire U.S. generation to suffer very severe "growing pains." I think that everything should be done to lessen this impact, including measures to slow the bleeding of jobs to other countries. Note, I said slow, not stop.

I also have well documented my views that the flow of jobs overseas is unfair when it occurs through trade agreements like the WTO which do not account for economic externalities like environment and labor. To the extent another country's "labor advantage" is the result of reduced environmental or labor standards, I think a nation like the US with higher imposed standards should be able to account for those standards in its tarriff structure.

I also agree with you that the outsourcing of jobs overseas is a very minor part of our current jobless economic recovery. A major part of the jobless economic recovery is that our U.S. employers are increasing demands on current labor forces rather than hiring new employees. As a current victim of that methodology, I have read 300+ pages of work-related reports in the past couple of hours and must say adieu to the forum for now to go work until about 2 a.m. so I can keep my job.

[Yorick]

I read a very good article about how outsourcing LoTR to New Zealand (which created an abundance of work there) it ultimately created MORE jobs in the USA through the film distributors being owned and based here. The jobs were different, but no less highly paid or enjoyable. Many were created in Manhattan for example.

[Sparhawk]

hmmmm abit off-topic *LOL*
out-sourcing is a good thing in those very highly developed countries as it...long-term...produces more work in the out-sourcing country...simply because that country taking the out-sourced work becomes more economical aware and the pay slowly rises and thus comnsumers want more...i.e. more work back home...wauw long answer to a very technical question!
sixty minutes has shown a couple of programs that dealed with this..."problem"