ONE question to all the atheists out there....

[Grungi]

yep masklinn that was my point earlier, who has the right to say a squirrel doesnt have a soul, doesnt believe in something, and wont enter "a better place" in the afterlife, esp as we all share the same past. When people talk about religion its only humans who are considered, im sure theres other lifeforms in the universe (i believe it to be small minded and egocentric to believe there arent) and they have their own beliefs, then things start to get really complicated [img]smile.gif[/img] i cannot wait for space travel and an official first contact, because that will really get the forums jumping [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Cloudbringer]

Vaskez posted (in response to grungi:

If you don't accept/believe in him then why are you worrying about heavan?

Exactly! The reason someone can't 'get to heaven' or be saved if they refuse to accept God is simple enough! If you don't believe and accept God, he can't exactly take you in. That's the one sure way NOT to be saved is to not WANT to be (by not believing in God). Vaskez, your whole thread is a fascinating one and I'm incredibly impressed by your posts! They're thoughtful, insightful and very obviously you've contemplated this whole concept alot! Kudos! And God Bless!

[Vaskez]

Grungi - God says everyone is judged - if you believe this then believe what else he says: only through him can you get to heaven. Therefore no not everyone can get there just by being good, as I have explained above.

Hindu gods are all forms of one god I think. If am mistaken then the case is that they still have one overall, "leader" God. All in all it's still monotheism IMO. Christians also have 3 things that make up God. Holy spirit, father, son etc. Now I don't know enough about Hinduism to say that it's like this with their "many" gods as well but like I said I'd be willing to say that they still have many forms of one supreme being or many minor gods but sill one supreme being. Anyway, you have to take into account the difference between muslim/hindu and Christian religions. In modern times in the first 2 I guess you are still pressured into being a muslim etc by society if you live in a muslim country. It's the only way to be accepted. Christians on the other hand are almost believing in SPITE of society. Therefore they are not misled. My argument about not thinking that 1 billion Christians can be misled (see long post on page 3 and above) is therefore valid IMO.

And hey, I believe in other forms of life on other planets as well. There's nothing AFAIK in the Bible to say there isn't. There's nothing that says we are unique, only that we are special. We can be special along with any other beings capable of understanding the concept of God in the universe. There could well be other such beings out there, I haven't read enough of the Bible to know if it mentions them at all or not.

[ 01-22-2003, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

[Timber Loftis]

OMG!!!! This thread has grown exponentially in less than one day???

I can't even begin to jump in. Busy now. Mayhap later I'll dig up one of my previous treatises on being an atheist and why it is the only logical and ethical thing to be.

But, the first post bothers me: it makes the assumption an atheist would choose based on selfishness - ridiculous.

Me, I like knowing I am food for worms. It means I'll make sure and do things right my one time around. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[Masklinn]

Well a squirrel mind is limited. Not sure he can believe in anything. That was not really the meaning of my post. Was more about how life is great and important in all its different form and that we usually DONT worry about what happens when the squirrel dies. And maybe we should start there.

And Vaskez, yes i agreed with your post and it covered some of the thoughts I had about this thread, though I wanted to post my own opinions and not just "What Vaskez said".

And about your famous post on page 3, there is something that I want to talk about :

"Even scientists admit that just for the atoms to come together to form life the chance is like 10^-31 "

/sarcasm on
Yeah, and I, as a scientist admit that just for me to win the lottery the chance is 1 on 2 : I win or I don't.
/sarcasm off

You should have said : Even scientists admit that just for the atoms to come together to form THIS PARTICULAR life WE KNOW, the chance is like 10^-31.

Who knows if some of the other configuration wouldnt have made some kind of life too ?

Playing with numbers and chances can be so tricky [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Vaskez]

Originally posted by Cloudbringer: Vaskez posted (in response to grungi: quote: If you don't accept/believe in him then why are you worrying about heavan?

Exactly! The reason someone can't 'get to heaven' or be saved if they refuse to accept God is simple enough! If you don't believe and accept God, he can't exactly take you in. That's the one sure way NOT to be saved is to not WANT to be (by not believing in God). Vaskez, your whole thread is a fascinating one and I'm incredibly impressed by your posts! They're thoughtful, insightful and very obviously you've contemplated this whole concept alot! Kudos! And God Bless![/QUOTE]Ah, I must be high or somethin. Don't worry I'll be back to my cheerful sarcastic self tomorrow

hmmmm sorry about all the typos everyone, they're bound to happen in long posts and I can't be bothered to edit them

[Masklinn]

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| What does happen when the squirrel dies ? |
| |
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(That will be the title of my new book)

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Whew! Where to begin? So many topics, points, and counterpoints - far too many to address individually.

Melusine - I have waited this long to join the thread because of the pattern it was following. I was truly impressed with all the responses on the 1st page. They were honost answers to the questions put forth by Vaskez and - for once - avoided the recurring cycle of harsh criticisms and defensive responses that these threads usually generate. Then Yorick and Dagorian began debating the issue of wars caused by religions. I'm sorry guys, but these arguments have been hashed and rehashed and they also didn't address the questions or the main topic of this thread.

I'm glad to see it heading back to main focus Vaskez originally intended.

Now for my own response to the topic at hand.

Why I believe in God

I believe in God because I have personally felt His presence in my life in various situations. I was raised in a Christian home, so I always "believed" in God...but I didn't really become a Christian until I accepted God on my own initiative and for my own reasons. Up until that time, I had just been "going through the motions". My belief in God is not in response to my being "unable to accept the fact that there is no real purpose for us being here". I do not need answers to "unanswerable questions". I just realized one night in church that I had never actually committed my life to Jesus and that I needed to do that if I were going to continue calling myself a Christian.

The Bible says that "a peace which surpasseth all understanding" will come over you when you turn your troubles over to God. I can vouch 100% for that...I have felt this inexplicable peace on many different occasions when I faced circumstances in my life that were simply beyond my ability to control. When I tried to control the circumstances on my own, my stress levels rose through the roof and the situation only got worse. When I finally went to God in prayer and said "I cannot handle this. I turn it over to you" - I immediately felt a wave of calm come over me and I had a feeling of assurance that everything would work out OK. And it always has - even though it didn't always work out the way I had wanted it too. In the end, God's solution was far better than anything I could have done on my own.

I believe in God because of an ongoing relationship I have with Him through Jesus Christ. My faith is not based on the Bible, it is based on the real events in my life that have been influenced by the presence of God in my life. I do believe the Bible is the Word of God. All of the things I've experienced are also documented in the Bible and follow the same experiences other Christians have had. I have never found any part of the Bible to be false, in my personal experience. The Bible documented what would I happen if I would accept God and Jesus Christ on faith. I tried it and it happened exactly like the Bible said it would. Therefore, I trust what the Bible says about any other issues or questions I have. However, my faith is still based on my personal relationship with God and not "because the Bible says so". Those who claim to believe the Bible, but don't have an ongoing relationship with God, are the ones who feel it is "God's Will" to bomb abortion clinics or kill thier neighbor for having a different belief.

I have heard atheists call the Bible "nothing more than a collection of fables and fairy tales". That is actually a very accurate description for someone who doesn't have the Holy Spirit of God within them to help them understand the messages and symbolism the various stories represent. The best way for me to explain it is to say that I always "believed" the stories of the Bible while growing up...but I didn't truly "understand" them until after my Salvation.

Speaking of which, Melusine mentioned the fact that I believe a heinous criminal can be forgiven of their sins and enter Heaven while a "goodly person" can be barred from Heaven because they didn't accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. Technically, that is correct. The Bible does say that "good works alone" are not enough to make it into Heaven. But this applies more to the "Sunday Christians" who think that - as long as they go to church and act nice to people - they are "good to go". And that just isn't the way it works. When a person truly accepts Jesus Christ as thier Savior, the Holy Spirit will enter into their heart and transform them. They will be a changed person and act in a manner more closely attuned to God's Will. Many people who consider themselves Christians, never actually make this "full time commitment" to God. It is these people that the Bible is addressing.

Can a person that lives a "good life", but does not accept Jesus Christ as their Savior get into Heaven? That's a tricky question. Certainly by human standards, that person "deserves" to have a wonderful after-life - but we humans aren't the ones who get to choose who goes and who doesn't. Only God can do that. And God does judge the HEART of a person, not their head. These discussions have led me to "expand" my view a bit. Our souls enter Heaven by Grace alone. NOTHING we do on Earth can EARN us the right to be in Heaven...all we can do is trust in the Grace and Mercy of God and Jesus Christ. For most Christians, this means accepting the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross as an atonement for our sins. We are still getting into Heaven by Grace, it is the Grace of Jesus Christs Love. But a person can also enter Heaven through the Grace of God Himself. The thief on the cross was not able to accept Jesus as his Savior, but he still entered Heaven because of the Grace granted by God.

So, yes, a "good hearted person" could enter Heaven - if God allowed it.

[Grungi]

erm its not simple, your basically saying then cloudbringer that im not judged when i die? so what happens to me as i dont believe? in your belief im going to hell then?

and vaskez your saying i am judged but i dont get there anyway? so where do i go? hell? im a good person living my life in a good way and this good god of yours is going to say basically "fck him, eternity of hell for that boy because he didnt believe in me" yeah right, if he was a god like that then he'd be a pretty nasty god, esp as hes condemning half of humanity to eternal damnation, do you REALLY believe your god is that callous?

Vaskez if you think hindus are monotheistic, then ROFL why would they even invent that word? its not possible therefore to have more than one god as you will just end up saying that they are both really the same god, so there is no such word as monotheistic because its a given? Of course they arent, hindus believe in a multitude of gods not in a single god, therefore they cannot be worshipping the same christian god as he decreed that noone should worship false idols or other gods which hindus do, they are mutually exclusive.

and im still not going with the "if 1 billion people say it, it must be right" that argument doesnt stand up, otherwise everyone else would believe it straight away, and they dont, were human and we believe what we want to believe, anyhows i dont think theres a billion christians in the world its a lot less than that. As for being pressured into it, i was pressured into christianity and i know alot of communities where that happens still, thankfully these days we have the option to say no to it as i did when iw as very young, i was disgusted that i was forced to go to church and i still am, i think religion is a choice and its totally out of order to force someone to believe something that they just dont. All religions do that to some extent, christianity, muslim etc, none of that makes a difference to whether that religion is right or not, that can only be proved by the appearence of god, and even then i suspect people wont believe, id be highly suspicious i must admit.

Would be nice to have a hindu and muslim point of view on this thread as well, as i think they'd have some strong views to share.

[Masklinn]

God is Love and every Men are his children.

Therefor...everyone one should have access to heaven.
Can you imagin God refusing someone, knowing that He is Love ?

There are so much flaws