God doesn’t exist... Mathematically?

[Mellagar]

That sounds a lot like the Descartes point of view that 2+2 does not equal four, we don't really exist and this conversation never really took place.

[LordKathen]

Originally posted by purre: Sorry to add more gasoline to the forest fire,but I think that people invented god(s) to explain things that they dont understand,now those beliefs have spread and became religions. I,myself dont believe in god(s),and I think that I woudnt believe even if I got hard evidence from someone.Many think that the bible or other religious books are hard evidence,but is it only because the certain book says that this is true? Isnt that a sort of on going circle? "this is true,because it says here that this is true" I think though that everyone should have the right to believe in whatever they want. I dont intend to hurt anyones feelings by writing this,so I am not going to continue this post any longer,eventhough I love philosophical discussions.

Well said..

[LordKathen]

And yes, I to am now done with this post. I respect everyones opinion, but I end when someone with a failing point becomes aggresive in there debate. I have nothing to loose in my eyes, christians have everything to loose. I choose freedom of thought. No hard feelings here, Yorick. I hope it is likewise.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by LordKathen: 2. No, I meant interpreted. It has been interpreted by every religion out there to there own personnel agenda or opinion. All the differences in the religions prove that. Whats a sin to one is not to another. Was that power to the people? What about power to the god? Do you think it was his intention to confuse the crap out of everybody. I know this becouse I have no fear of death. I am not afraid to come outside the box and question the norm. Where you there to put so much "faith" in something you can not prove? 3. I dont think you can assure me of anything. As you said, they are divided themselves, so how could you know? By what you read? More doctrine. 3b.I think you have experienced something you cannot explain, so you say it was god, as humans have been doing for ever. Was it an overwhelming feeling of joy or comfort? These can be explained biologically. And until you prove THAT wrong, its all fantasy to ME [img]smile.gif[/img] 4.Yes, I do think there is no logic in love. Love is an emotion, thats all. Of course it exists, does anger exists, loneliness, happiness? Trusting my wife is completly different than trusting an invisable god going on nothing but doctrine.

2. Your facts are getting shady mate. "Every religion out there" doesn't regard the Bible as the inspired word of God. Hinduism doesn't, Buddhism doesn't, Islam and Mormonism believes it has errors, Judaism Includes the first five books of the Bible in the Torah, but rejects the New testament. Zoroastrianism doesn't.

The only world religion that regards the Bible as the inspired word of God - read literally - is Christianity. The Myriad translations have remained consistent.

3. I can't assure you that Siddartha was a historical Prince? Do you reject historical records? Do you disbelieve any historical human existed, or do you pick and choose like this? Why would you refute that Buddha existed despite the mountainous evidence suggesting otherwise?

I suppose Jesus, Julius Caeser, Muhammad, Sun Tzu, Confucious, Hammurabi and Ramesees were all fictional characters and not historical people of influence either??

The Buddhists are divided as to Buddhas existence NOW, not in history.

3b. Regarding my experience, you are in now way able to speak about that which I've experienced. That is presupposing your reality onto me. An impossibility. I do not need to prove you wrong. It makes no difference to my worldview whatsoever.

4. You contradict yourself. You said and I quote:

"There is only PROVEN facts of logic". (sic)

Yet now you've turned around and said:

"Yes, I do think there is no logic in love. Love is an emotion, thats all. Of course it exists".

So which is it? Is existence limited to that which is logically proven, or do you allow for the existence of things which can not be?

Regarding this statement of yours: "Trusting my wife is completly different than trusting an invisable god going on nothing but doctrine"
But of course. I never said I trust an invisible god going on nothing on doctrine. I trust the Creator of the Universe, through an ongoing interractive relationship enabled by the death and resurection of Jesus Christ and the presence of the Holy Spirit in my life.

So let's take the comparison to a spousal relationship. I was married seven years. I know a little bit about love, trust and faith in a relationship.

Can you prove your wife loves you? Can you quantify and measure the amount? Do you logically test and measure opposite tests?

She could be lying. her whole life could be a lie. That would not be a unique scenario.

Without TRUST, without taking a step of FAITH, believing that, yes she does love you, and thus making yourself vulnerable and loving her, the relationship would not exist functionally.

As such it is no different than a relationship with God. God gives us the choice to seek him out, ignore him, reject him, love him or remain apathetic. Faith is what gives a relationship with God it's value, just as trust and vulnerability give a spousal relationship it's value.

[ 11-11-2002, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[AzRaeL StoRmBlaDe]

The highest levels of quantum pyhsics just lead to more unanswerable questions. even so lets say the universe as we know it did come about by way of the singularity. What then created the singularity?

[Gammit]

Math, being a philosophy, has always been used to uncover truths about our universe. Knowing that, I wasn't too surprised when I heard of this author claiming that he had used math to prove (or disprove... I don't remember) that God exists. I hope this person makes some good money and all, but I (as a mathematician) do not see how this can be done... I tried going through his book once, and just gave up. Interesting idea, though...

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Dagorion: Right, that’s it, I'm leaving. I know I started this thread but in the first 10 posts I realized that the same arguments were being presented by different people who think they are right. I suggest that anyone with half a brain leaves this thread now and never returns because if you are dumb enough to stick around and present arguments that there is no possible explanation for (without the knowledge that God has) then there is something seriously wrong with you! These arguments are pointless and will go in circles with people from both side posting their opinions that are often incredible angering to the people of the opposite sides. LEAVE NOW, FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!

What happened to this Dagorion?:

Originally posted by an Aussie Dag: I know its very controversial and can be proven wrong but I’m looking for someone I can have a REAL discussion with, someone who has hard evidence that can counter mine. And all of the arguments I have herd today I have herd before and have proven wrong as best I can. I want new evidence presented to me that can actually prove me wrong not the same old arguments.

The main benefit of discussion is to oneself. The purpose should be to test ones own belief, not change anothers. Mine gets stronger everytime I am asked to define mine. Every time something is challenged.

One of the best Christian Churches I went to had no minister. It was full of of counterculturalists, artists, computer programmers, musicians, gays and people burned by conventional churches (many like myself were divorced). We basically deconstructed everything. Discussed every aspect of Christian theology, searched it against the Bible and what we held to be true. We encouraged disagreement as a means to finding truth. Did 'Church' differently each week. Set it up in a candlelit, coffee plentiful lounge/Cafe environment. Sometimes it would be an artist sharing their work. Other times three of us speaking, other times simply shared prayer accompanied by music. Other times debate.

It was for a particular season in my life, and I moved on, but it impacted me immensely.

Discussion is not something to be feared. Malicious rudeness shouldn't be tolerated, by passion doesn't equate rudeness.

[ 11-11-2002, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by LordKathen: I choose freedom of thought..

As do I.

[The Hunter of Jahanna]

I suppose Jesus, Julius Caeser, Muhammad, Sun Tzu, Confucious, Hammurabi and Ramesees were all fictional characters and not historical people of influence either??

Not to pick on you Yorick, but archeologists have found concrete evidence of the existance of all but 1 of the people on your list.Also as far as the bible goes, to the best of my knowedge every denomination has their own version of it.The King James bible is called that because KING JAMES of England had it rewritten to fit his own ends. The mormons followed polygamy,catholics have exorcisms,the Lutherans were founded by a man named...Martin LUTHER, Baptist claim to follow the ideals of John the baptist from the bible. The list goes on and on. All you have to do is go into any book store and go to the religious section and look at all the titles on the bibles. For a real shocker try reading a few of them and see how many of them tell basicaly the same story, but use diffrent wording and phraseology to tell it. This sint an attack and it isnt exclusive to christianity either. Almost all religions have had their tennents modified and changed over the course of history.

[LordKathen]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by LordKathen: I choose freedom of thought..

As do I.[/QUOTE]No, you are governed by your faith.