Taking out the trash in Yemen!!!

[Night Stalker]

barry_the_sprout The groups rely on heavy grass-roots support, thats where we have to knock them out. We need to make sure people see these groups for what they are.

"I remember when I was with the Special Forces, Willard. We moved into a village and innoculated all the children for small pox. We returned a few weeks later. They .... They had hacked off the arms of the children where we had innoculated them. They were in a pile in the center of the village. All these little arms ....."

While this may be a quote from a movie(guess), it does illustrate a good point. How do you win over a group at the grass roots level that is so opposed to you, that even acts of kindness are viewed as acts of hostility?

Unfortunatly the only way to deal with a rabid animal is to put it down ... and hope you can control the spread ....

[Barry the Sprout]

Originally posted by Ziroc: In wartime, it is kill or BE killed. It sucks, but this is reality. If you were face to face with one of these guys, and you both had a gun--knowing that this guy WILL kill you, would you defend yourself? I would hope so! [img]smile.gif[/img] It's like that, but on a global scale. See, we have been going directly to these people, and taking them out. not an entire city block or something. I agree, killing is horrid, and I wish no one killed anyone, but the facts are, if we don't get them, they WILL get us. No about of security cameras, guards and scanners will keep us safe forever.

In this instance it was by no means kill or be killed. Whether or not the people could have been caught that doesn't change the fact that those soldiers were not in any danger. I understand you meant on a global scale but that doesn't wash for me either. I could understand if we had some kind of magical proof that this would actually work (understand, but maybe not condone). But we really have no idea of whether or not just killing everyone will stop terrorism, and I really don't think it will personally. War is the wrong description for this kind of conflict as it implies the enemy just has to be beaten. We can't beat an ideology on the battlefield, and even if you could what exactly would it say for the supposedly superior ideology that had to resort to force to overcome its enemy?

Some of these people present a threat, but a hell of a lot more people will present a threat if we keep up this kind of attack. It is impossible to kill them all so how on earth do you expect to win this in a conventional "war" sense?

[Gandar]

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Err I think the people of Isreal would disagree that they have a dictator. The Israelis vote for their leaders and there are always mroe than one candidate and last I heard no one was ever forced to vote for someone they didnt want to there. As for force, you can't show me a single instance where appeasement has not made things worse in the long run. It didn't work for Nevile Chamberlain, it hasn't worked for Israel and it will not work with islamic extremists since the only way to appease them is to have all western infidels die.

Israel has a dictatorial regime in place, not necessarily a dictatorial individual. I know its a bit of a dodgy concept, but considering its the modern South Africa as far as racial discrimination goes the government is not as democratic as either the Israelis or the West in general would like to think.

I'm not talking about appeasement here, I don't want to give into to all of the most radical of fundamentalists. I do think that if the US and UK stops acting so aggressive that it will pull the rug out from under them. I don't think this is appeasement, merely justice for all - not just the white Westerners.

And we must also remember that it can't really be considered appeasement as this is far from a normal war. There is no single body of people to negotiate with, as such there is no one to really "appease". All I'm saying is that if we keep hitting these people we will provide a constant source of power for them. We don't need to give in entirely, just start actually thinking about what these people are saying. Demands like "Israel out of the Occupied territories" are not that radical, and helping on something like that would geeatly decrease support for Al-Quead, Saddam Hussein, and all of the other fundamentalist dictators.[/QUOTE]OK, So we should listen to what these people are saying? These poor, mistreated people want Israel out of occupied territories, so the best way to get Israel's attention is to hijack four non-Israeli jets, Destroy or seriously damage several non-Israeli buildings, and take the lives of THOUSANDS of non-Israeli citizens?(Did any of these people receive a trial before the terrorists passed judgement and executed them?)Were the sailos killed onboard U.S.S Cole given a trial? Was there any attempt to capture these "Western Criminals" before they were exterminated?

Barry, where is YOUR proof that any of the people killed in the attacks on 9/11 and on the Cole were guilty of ANYTHING? I have not heard one word from you asking "What right did the terrorists have in killing these people?". I don't care what thier complaints are, they do not justify killing thousands of people that had NOTHING to do with what these terrorist's are complaining about.

Also, if you allow vicious attacks like this to stand, and then ask the attackers why they are mad so you can make things better for them, you are condoning terrorism as an acceptable form of communication, and soon every angry mob in the world will adopt the idea "Terrorize first, Negotiate Second". I'm sorry, but your arguement is nonsense!!

[realbinky]

Oooh boy, this is a long discussion..I couldn't get through it all before saying my piece. I feel bad for every "innocent" human life that is lost. whether the US causes it, or some crazy palestinian blows up an Israeli bus full of kids. No one is truly innocent, but you can have feelings and not be a bad guy. I also understand that in countries such as Iraq, the people can't change it, like we can here, since Insane Hussein has all the guns, and the people have no power. I figure plenty of "arabs" (middle-eastern/Islamic folks) see the US as decadent and "sinful," but that's 100% different from actually trying to change it by destroying us. Just let us lead our sinful lives. When YOU go to paradise, we'll burn in hell, OK? Well, for some, that isn't good enough... on behalf of their god, they have to kill us all, and destroy the US. Well, fellas, ain't going to happen. Citizens of the US, myself included, do have a tendency to take our liberties and priveledges for granted, until someone tries to take them, hence the amazing outpouring of patriotism lately, thanks to 9/11. Sadly, many regress back to taking such for granted, we should be voting at a >95% but if we reach 75%, its "good." Anyhoo, I see us as the better guys (maybe not good, but better). Sure, we meddle in foreign governments, when they are dictators living off the misery of the people of the country. But we get out once we think a better system is in place and stable. We send lots of aid to the peoples of other countries. We are taught that everyone is equal, we were built off the immigrants from almost all nations. Part of us IS you. If we didn't care about civilians, or "innocents" we wouldn't send aid, it wouldn't take 2 YEARS to research and follow, and identify agents of terror, we would just blast any possibilities. We wouldn't wait for them to be in the desert, we'd waste the town they were in. Then we'd take over ALL the middle east, and kill them all, as TL sleepily said. We wouldn't let the Suadi's and everyone keep OUR oil wells. That's right, they're OURS. We did the mapping, the drilling, the infrastructure, all of it. Then they closed their borders and threw us out, and we said "okay," it IS your country, just sell us oil, ok?

We need to vilently remove the fanatics. Islam is OK, Muslims are ok, Hindu, Buddists, anyone can belive all they want, let me do the same. Remove the fanatics that will act against us with EXTREME predjudice. Hopefully, it will push those on the fence considering action against us off in the right direction. That they would rather hate us, but take no action. I'd rather they all hate us, but not do anything, and stay alive, than 1% try to kill us. Leave us alone, we will leave you alone. And I don't know how anyone, ANYONE, doesn't know a few things: at least ONE guy in that car is a terrorist, the US is at war with terrorists, we usually blow up our opponents in war, and if you don't want to get blown up, avoid the terrorists. I don't expect you to do anything to or about them, except stay away. Therefore, anyone found in company with a terrorist IS one, or at least supports them.

Hooray for the USA, and of course EVERYONE else who leaves the others alone!

[Timber Loftis]

Barry, you propose long-term remedies, and ones that should perhaps be used.

But, the immediate problem of these terrorists organizations must also be addressed. And, the time has come to do so with force. Making the rest of the world happy with America - ignore the fact that it will take EONS and see my Oprah (coming in mere minutes) - will not undue Al Queda, it will merely prevent the repopulation of its ranks in the future. But, Al Queda will still exist, with the same stated mission: a jihad against America.

Finding its members and killing them is a related but distinct issue from the American foreign policy which caused some, but not all, of the problem.

[Barry the Sprout]

Originally posted by Night Stalker: quote: "I remember when I was with the Special Forces, Willard. We moved into a village and innoculated all the children for small pox. We returned a few weeks later. They .... They had hacked off the arms of the children where we had innoculated them. They were in a pile in the center of the village. All these little arms ....."

While this may be a quote from a movie(guess), it does illustrate a good point. How do you win over a group at the grass roots level that is so opposed to you, that even acts of kindness are viewed as acts of hostility?

Unfortunatly the only way to deal with a rabid animal is to put it down ... and hope you can control the spread ....[/QUOTE]I didn't say it would be a quick and simple process, sadly. The problem is, as you say, that hatred runs deep. All the more reason I suppose why we need to sort this out. I think when people are that opposed to you on a grass roots basis this kind of thing is going to be impossible to control. I can't see how saying that the average person really, really, REALLY hates the West supports any argument other than the peace one. This is precisely my point - we have created such hatred that we cannot put down the rabid animal, as it is in rife conditions for spreading to pretty much everywhere.

Anyway, I have to go for the evening now. Its been fun guys, sorry we haven't really reached any sort of concensus, but at least we all know why we think the way we do. And thats a start to convincing you all that I'm right... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

No, really...

[Moiraine]

About the "War on terrorism" issue, here are some people, many of them from the US, who don't share MagiK's views at all (Artists and Writers Oppose Expanding War On Terrorism" petition).

[Barry the Sprout]

Originally posted by Gandar: OK, So we should listen to what these people are saying? These poor, mistreated people want Israel out of occupied territories, so the best way to get Israel's attention is to hijack four non-Israeli jets, Destroy or seriously damage several non-Israeli buildings, and take the lives of THOUSANDS of non-Israeli citizens?(Did any of these people receive a trial before the terrorists passed judgement and executed them?)Were the sailos killed onboard U.S.S Cole given a trial? Was there any attempt to capture these "Western Criminals" before they were exterminated? Barry, where is YOUR proof that any of the people killed in the attacks on 9/11 and on the Cole were guilty of ANYTHING? I have not heard one word from you asking "What right did the terrorists have in killing these people?". I don't care what thier complaints are, they do not justify killing thousands of people that had NOTHING to do with what these terrorist's are complaining about. Also, if you allow vicious attacks like this to stand, and then ask the attackers why they are mad so you can make things better for them, you are condoning terrorism as an acceptable form of communication, and soon every angry mob in the world will adopt the idea "Terrorize first, Negotiate Second". I'm sorry, but your arguement is nonsense!!

Sorry, couldn't resist replying to this one...

So because the terrorists did it we are allowed to do it too? Doesn't sound much like a system of justice to me personally. I'm not saying Sept11th was a good thing, and I'm certainly not saying those people deserved it. Neither am I saying that the terrorists in question shouldnt' be caught at some stage. What I am saying is that we can't get ourselves stuck into the "He started it!" school of diplomacy, because ultimately no one thinks that they actually started it.

I don't justify what they did, I am trying to justify what my government does in my name, and I can't. Whether or not the terrorists killed people without trial doesn't mean we should or we will be doing this for years, and lots more people will die before its over.

[Spelca]

Originally posted by Gandar: OK, So we should listen to what these people are saying? These poor, mistreated people want Israel out of occupied territories, so the best way to get Israel's attention is to hijack four non-Israeli jets, Destroy or seriously damage several non-Israeli buildings, and take the lives of THOUSANDS of non-Israeli citizens?(Did any of these people receive a trial before the terrorists passed judgement and executed them?)Were the sailos killed onboard U.S.S Cole given a trial? Was there any attempt to capture these "Western Criminals" before they were exterminated? Barry, where is YOUR proof that any of the people killed in the attacks on 9/11 and on the Cole were guilty of ANYTHING? I have not heard one word from you asking "What right did the terrorists have in killing these people?". I don't care what thier complaints are, they do not justify killing thousands of people that had NOTHING to do with what these terrorist's are complaining about. Also, if you allow vicious attacks like this to stand, and then ask the attackers why they are mad so you can make things better for them, you are condoning terrorism as an acceptable form of communication, and soon every angry mob in the world will adopt the idea "Terrorize first, Negotiate Second". I'm sorry, but your arguement is nonsense!!

I don't think what he wanted to say was that terrorism is okay. What he is trying to say is that the terrorists didn't just wake up one morning and think 'oh, let's go kill some civilians'. They had reasons for killing. And no, I'm not saying that justifies what they did. But without 'treating' the reason, there will be more and more terrorists. You cannot just wipe out terrorism by killing all terrorists. If nothing else, by killing all of terrorists, and not trying to capture them and give them a trial, you make more people angry, which means you have more terrorists on your hands. Look at Palestina. Lots of those suicidal bombings are made by family members who were angry that their relative got killed by the Israeli.
So we need to make sure that these people won't get to have more 'sources' to get angry. We should make sure that the conflict between Israel and Palestina is solved peacefully, as an example. Bombing towns will not help... because there will always be civilian victims, which will make even more people angry...

[Wurm]

I would have rather we captured them for only one reason.

To torture them to find out everything they knew before killing them.

just my 2 cents...

Feel free to flame me. I don't get upset over stuff said on the internet [img]smile.gif[/img]