Aid Money - to get things into perspective

[Silver Cheetah]

quote:

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Originally posted by Hiram Sedai:
Wow!! That was nasty. I'm back to lurking. Take it easy folks.

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Oi, Cheetoh man! come back here!! What was nasty? I've just read my post again, and can't find what I said..

What did I say?? Tell Cheetah!

Neb, could you go ask Hiram to please come read this post? I certainly do not and did not wish to wound his feelings, and am very concerned that he is upset. Thanks!

[Neb]

quote:

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Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:


Oi, Cheetoh man! come back here!! What was nasty? I've just read my post again, and can't find what I said..

What did I say?? Tell Cheetah!

Neb, could you go ask Hiram to please come read this post? I certainly do not and did not wish to wound his feelings, and am very concerned that he is upset. Thanks!

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I'll see what I can do Cheetah, I'm sure you didn't mean to hurt his feelings [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Silver Cheetah]

quote:

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Originally posted by Neb:
Cheetah, I usually agree with most of your opinions and find your posts to be calm and backed by logical fact, but in this thread you seem to be getting a bit hostile, look:

This isn't a response one would expect to one of your normal posts! Calm down a bit, relax....

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Nebbling, yes, good point. I'm aware that I'm scratchy today. I had some bad news, I got a virus, and, perhaps more relevantly, I've been doing some research on conditions amongst third world producers of western goods. What I have found out I already knew, to some extent, but I have filled in some parts of the picture that I was ignorant about. The lives that some people live are very present to me at the moment - and the fact that it is Western multinationals who are saving money on production and making big profits by taking advantage of poverty sticken people's vulnerability has made me very upset.

Sometimes I despair. And no-one seems very interested anyway. I've posted several posts on that very subject in this thread, and all I get (sorry Ron!) is people whinging about me attacking America. I was hoping that someone would be interested in what I was actually saying.... perhaps want to know more..... But seems like I'm wasting my breath.

So yes, I don't feel too good. My apologies if I have upset anyone by coming on a little strong. It was not my intent to hurt anyone's feelings!

[Ronn_Bman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:

Sometimes I despair. And no-one seems very interested anyway. I've posted several posts on that very subject in this thread, and all I get (sorry Ron!) is people whinging about me attacking America. I was hoping that someone would be interested in what I was actually saying.... perhaps want to know more..... But seems like I'm wasting my breath.

So yes, I don't feel too good. My apologies if I have upset anyone by coming on a little strong. It was not my intent to hurt anyone's feelings!

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Don't despair! (Though I despaired a little when you didn't comment on my zucchini lasagna )

You won't find people where I live supporting shipping jobs overseas for cheap labor. I live in a rural southern town whose primary industry is textiles. Virtually every mill has closed or downsized due to the cheap overseas labor in the last 20 years. Our local economy has been in recession for years.

My mother is a personnel director and, after working nearly 30 years with the same company, was laid off repeated because of cheap labor. In the last 10 years, she's had the same type office job at 4 different mills and each was closed. She has had the unenviable job of laying off a couple of thousand people in the past 10 years. The sad thing is people get mad at her, but once she finishes the process, her job is gone too. Her last day at her latest job was about two weeks ago. So you see, I am very personally affected by this process, and not at all ignorant of it.

I will say that while conditions maybe deplorable in these places, they were deplorable before the industries moved in. And while they pay little, it is quite alot to those who have nothing to start with. Children being force to work in sweat shops is aweful, but isn't that more about their culture than our business? The pay is certainly not up to our standards, but if it were, they'd be getting nothing wouldn't they? If it could be done as cheaply in the US, or if they charged as much as our workers do here, then the jobs would still be here.

The Chinese and Japanese have used these cheap labor markets much longer than the US, so I really don't think we led the way. It's terrible, but it's not completely, or even mostly the US's fault.

I'm not upset with you Cheeta. I still think you're a cute furry thing [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Cloudbringer]

Hiram? Come back and say whatever you feel like saying, you have as much right to do so as anyone who disagrees with you!!!

Damn.. THIS is the kind of thing that I LEFT THE FORUM over in the first place. I just started posting here again and now I see it's not changed as much as I was led to believe it had.

SC, I'm sorry you are upset today but is that an excuse for being caustic or rude to people like Hiram who ADMITTED he doesn't post here because of the general atmosphere he's seen while lurking? Just my opinion and observation here, but perhaps thinking twice and NOT posting when one feels 'scratchy' is the answer. And yes, you apologized, thanks for that, it shows a nicer kitty under those fangs and claws. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I am asking everyone who posts to keep in mind that this sort of thing shouldn't happen in the first place and to post accordingly.

SC, I KNOW you feel strongly and I feel just as strongly about the injustices being done in 3rd world countries. Yes, hard to believe, maybe, but Cloudy DOES pay attention to those news reports and HAS made an effort not to support the worst offenders in their sales quotas by not purchasing their goods. BUT I also know that that is NOT the only place there are troubles in this great big old world of ours and I try to be sympathetic to other people's thoughts and feelings. That usually gets me labeled 'wus' or 'unable to carry on a serious discussion'. But I feel it is a necessary part of interacting with many different people.

No member of the forum should ever be wary of posting his/her thoughts or opinions because they expect to be 'jumped on' or harshly treated. I know many have been and some, obviously still are. This really bothers me. I had hoped EVERYONE could feel safe giving their opinions here. It is ok to NOT agree with someone, and even to do it with strong conviction but I don't think we should be sarcastic when addressing the comments of people we don't agree with.


Cloudy, done ranting for now and out to play in GD for a bit

[Silver Cheetah]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cloudbringer:
Hiram? Come back and say whatever you feel like saying, you have as much right to do so as anyone who disagrees with you!!!

Damn.. THIS is the kind of thing that I LEFT THE FORUM over in the first place. I just started posting here again and now I see it's not changed as much as I was led to believe it had.

SC, I'm sorry you are upset today but is that an excuse for being caustic or rude to people like Hiram who ADMITTED he doesn't post here because of the general atmosphere he's seen while lurking? Just my opinion and observation here, but perhaps thinking twice and NOT posting when one feels 'scratchy' is the answer. And yes, you apologized, thanks for that, it shows a nicer kitty under those fangs and claws. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Oh for goodness sake.

Is this a discussion forum or a nursery school? Go read my original post to Hiram, Cloudy, word for word It *really* doesn't warrant all this overreaction. If my 'excuse me whilst I burst into tears' phrase is the source of all this, all I can say is I'm sorry for the lot of you, with those delicate skins of yours. Such a mild comment... such a lot of fuss.

When Yorick went ape in the Brits thread, I didn't notice you slapping his wrists for what was big time rudeness and definite overreaction.

I'm sick of this double standard.

Incidently, I'm also fed up with people who aren't moderators, (i.e. you and Yorick) telling me how I should and should not comport myself on this forum. If the mods don't like how I debate and discuss, then they can tell me so. So far, I've heard nothing.

[Barry the Sprout]

I think I should come back to what really started this topic. If I remember rightly it was a newspaper article written about me that described me as "anti American". My problem with the article was that I am not "anti American" - it is just something I get branded with occasionally. Cloudy, Ronn, Magness:

I do not mind in the slightest you attacking what I beleive.

I DO mind you attacking what I don't beleive.

I think Hiram has a point, although I think SC does as well. We should remember that there are oppressed people all over the world, even in the richest country. I am an International Marxist, the true evil in this world is capitalism as it is a system that gives wealth to the few and poverty to the many.

The people who should have the blame for this action are the people who for years have manipulated soveriegn countries in order to further their own wealth. They are not just American, they come from all over. As Cloudy says there are probably plenty of rich Arabs out there who could contribute to to the world a lot more than they do.

I personally beleive that boudaries between countries are artificial. The biggest crime of the international capitalist is that they have got us fighting each other. This system, in the words of... actually I am sure you can guess who said it, "turns worker against worker".

What is unfortunate is that American policy is controlled by capitalists. Not Bush and Cheney but the people behind them. I am not talking smoke filled rooms kind of stuff here - just the fact that large companies have huge influence over politicians. So aid will be given in order to maintain a humanitarian image (I am not arguing that it doesn't help, what I mean is that we shouldn't ignore the purpose behind it).

What does it mean to be the richest country? Well, it means that you have the highest concentration of capitalists. America has done quite well out of it as trickle-down does work to an extent. But as Hiram says, there are still people being exploited there. I agree with SC, this doesn't mean that you should stop looking outwards but that you should start to sort out society. And the first step on that path in my veiw is Socialism, not going to happen for a while in the US admittedly but that would be my answer.

To your point, Magness, about countries acting in their own interests. I agree in part. I think they do - but I am using a different definition of country. In this case the country is the collection of capitalists who control the policy. I don't think it is in the interests of the American public in the long run to bomb afghanistan, but it is happening anyway. Why did America finance bay of Pigs et al in Latin America? Were the American public threatened or were American capitalists interests threatened?

I do feel very sorry for SC as she appear to be the only anti war person on this forum apart from me. Some of the stuff on here is pretty infuriating to read and might be considered flamebait under a different light. Not attacking anyone with that - I am just saying that the atmosphere is enough to irritate anyone. So please have some patience, or sypmathy, whichever you find easier.

I would like to finish with a thought. I agree that Exxon and Microsoft could put a hell of a lot more back from what they have taken. So could BP and Virgin, and I think SC would probably agree with me being in Greenpeace.

(were you on the Brent Spar at all BTW? Just wanted to know really...)

[Silver Cheetah]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cloudbringer:


You know, I keep getting this nagging feeling that it all boils down to you not liking the fact that some people DO have more than others... and sorry, SC, we are not utopia and we are not model Communists.

I am in no position to tell Mr. Gates or any other million/billionaire that he or she must solve the world's problems with their money. Sure, I'd LOVE it if we could do that, but it's not feasible and sitting around BLAMING A WHOLE COUNTRY for the problem is unreasonable.

And Hiram's point that the US does have poverty zones is still valid and those people STILL go without and suffer so your apparent "poor pitiful you" attitude is uncalled for in my opinion.

There are some pretty wealthy Arabs and Arab states out there but how many of THEM are offering to fix up Afghanistan? The USA is pledging support and aid. Seems simple to me, we ARE trying to help and whatever the reason, I'd still say those who are helping aren't deserving of such routine vilification.

Cloudy

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I'm not blaming a whole country. Please stop oversimplying what I say. It would be great if people read my posts once in a while. I made some points about tax, privatisation and the poverty gap which, incidently, no-one is addressing, prefering to attack me instead.

I have no problem with some having more than others, and I am not a communist. Your comments say more about you and your attitudes than they do about me, in my opinion.

I don't understand what you mean by your comment 'poor, pitiful you'. If you'd like to explain what you meant by that, then I might be able to frame a coherent reply.

[Cloudbringer]

quote:

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Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:


Oh for goodness sake.

Is this a discussion forum or a nursery school? Go read my original post to Hiram, Cloudy, word for word It *really* doesn't warrant all this overreaction.

When Yorick went ape in the Brits thread, I didn't notice you slapping his wrists for what was big time rudeness and definite overreaction.

I'm sick of this double standard.

Incidently, I'm also fed up with people who aren't moderators, (i.e. you and Yorick) telling me how I should and should not comport myself on this forum. If the mods don't like how I debate and discuss, then they can tell me so. So far, I've heard nothing.

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Ahh, well, SC, since I don't recall the thread I can't comment (the Brits one) but from comments I've seen here, it sounds like it was done as a response to what was perceived as anti-American flooding of threads. Still, any PERSONAL abuse shouldn't have been done or tolerated.

SC, True, I'm not a mod on this forum at this time. I AM however, a MEMBER of the Ironworks and my opinion on your 'comportment' is as valid as any other at this point. While we're slinging the proverbial mud, I'm none too happy with your sarcasm when someone doesn't agree with your stand. I've lost some friends on this forum (ALL OF IW) thanks to that kind of posting and I'm none too happy about it, but somehow I managed not to come in and treat you rudely, so I would expect the same in return.

Cloudy

[Neb]

quote:

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Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:


Oh for goodness sake.

Is this a discussion forum or a nursery school? Go read my original post to Hiram, Cloudy, word for word It *really* doesn't warrant all this overreaction.

When Yorick went ape in the Brits thread, I didn't notice you slapping his wrists for what was big time rudeness and definite overreaction.

I'm sick of this double standard.

Incidently, I'm also fed up with people who aren't moderators, (i.e. you and Yorick) telling me how I should and should not comport myself on this forum. If the mods don't like how I debate and discuss, then they can tell me so. So far, I've heard nothing.

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Well Cheetah, I guess you're going to have to be fed up with one more person who isn't a mod telling you what you should do, I think that it was just SLIGHTLY caustic what you said:

"Well excuse me whilst I burst into tears here. The richest country in the world has citizens in need - poor education poor medical treatment and crap food?"

That sounded kinda rude, and you could have been a BIT more caring about the americans, for anyone who cares his/her country more than I do and got such a thing said about their country I can understand that it might have hurt a bit, I think that you should, instead of asking me to try to tell him that you're sorry, email him and tell him, I probably won't get a chance to talk with him today anyway, I usually think you keep your cool and stay in control, but this time, I think you should have kept a BIT more calm, and I have to say that I disagree with both the post that I quoted at the top of my post and the one that I took a bit from a bit further down.

In my opinion, you should apologize to Cloudy and Hiram, how you do it, I care not, I just think you should.

EDIT: I do agree with you that it is unfair that YOU get "wrist-slapped" while Yorick doesn't, but did you consider the possibility that Cloudy might not even have SEEN that one of Yorick's posts?