US taught a lesson....will it ever learn from it?

Originally posted by Prime2U: I think you either don't really understand what a bully is, or else you have no idea of the history of American involvement in foreign affairs. If america wanted to be a bully there would be a lot more soil with the american flag planted in it. What they are is the biggest, toughest kid on the block who protects the little kids from the neighborhood bullies. Any actions we take against foreign contries or in support of foreign countries are never designed to take them over but to protect them from totalitarian regimes. I'll grant that often our reasons for helping are not purely from the goodness of our hearts, but we've never attacked a country for our own personal gain, which is what a bully would do. You want a bully, say hello to Saddam. What pisses them off is that because of us looking over their shoulder they can't unleash the violence, and often genocide, that they would like on their neighboring countries. They don't feel we have any business sticking our nose into their beat down, slaughtering, impoverishing business. But goin back to you bully idea, if you were walking down the street and saw a bully absolutely beating someone to death, and you knew you had the power to stop it, would you walk on by? Could your concience handle that? The US would stop it with as much force as was necessary, clean the beaten kid up, bandage him, take him home and feed him, and be willing to let things end there, as long as the bully quit. If the bully kept up his attacks, the US would take him out, then feed, clothe and help out his family. Is this evil? Truly? Or is this just annoying to evil people because it curbs their plans?

America has not protected palestine from israel has it? the american goverment has allowed israel to ethinicaly cleanse palestine and supplied them with the weapons to do so.

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In nomine Imperatis, guard our armour and our gaze; lubricate our projectile weapons that they do not jam. Bless and brighten the beams of our lasers; fiat lux in tenebris.
He is the Master of Mankind by the will of the gods and master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies. He is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with power from the Dark Age of Technology. He is the Carrion Lord of the Imperium to whom a thousand souls are sacrificed every day.

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by DragonMage: Guys - Istaron and AboveTheRimYo, for example - the reason I take offense at the tone is that I am aware of the fact that, while some people and some whole countries think America is great, other people and countries don't. That's fine. But what I wish you would understand is that not ALL American citizens are what is projected. We have no more say - ultimately - in what our government does than you do in yours. It keeps coming across to me that you seem to hold 'we, the people' responsible when this country isn't for 'we, the people' anymore - not really. Yes, we vote on our leaders, but anyone we vote on can screw up. How are we, the individuals, now responsible for their decisions? I certainly have no say in whether or not we declare war. It just seems that those of you who have a bad view of America and Americans due to our GOVERNMENT'S decisions are saying that we are all bad and are happy about everything. Some are, some aren't. But being rude or sarcastic certainly isn't going to get you taken seriously. And insulting people - ATRY - is going to get you ignored in the end instead of having your views considered. Oh! I don't know why I bother! You've decided we're all a bunch of bullies. [This message has been edited by DragonMage (edited 10-10-2001).]

Oh illuminated sister DragonMage, I AM an American.

I am glad to be living in this country. However, that does not mean it is perfect or beyond criticism. Criticizing American's political actions is NOT the same thing as claiming all Americans are scum, and I think you know that.

Are we to say that America's actions cannot be criticized, because that would be an attack on the American people?

Even in Nazi Germany, not all Germans supported the terrible actions done by Hitler's government. Surely you don't believe that condemning the actions of that Nazi government, even in harsh terms, amounts to condemning the whole German people? Surely one can criticize that goverment without attacking the whole people?

I think, as an American, that the American government and its actions in recent history very much need to be criticized. That does not mean i condemn all Americans (which of course would include condemning myself )

Food for thought

[DragonMage]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: Oh illuminated sister DragonMage, I AM an American. I am glad to be living in this country. However, that does not mean it is perfect or beyond criticism. Criticizing American's political actions is NOT the same thing as claiming all Americans are scum, and I think you know that. Are we to say that America's actions cannot be criticized, because that would be an attack on the American people? Even in Nazi Germany, not all Germans supported the terrible actions done by Hitler's government. Surely you don't believe that condemning the actions of that Nazi government, even in harsh terms, amounts to condemning the whole German people? Surely one can criticize that goverment without attacking the whole people? I think, as an American, that the American government and its actions in recent history very much need to be criticized. That does not mean i condemn all Americans (which of course would include condemning myself ) Food for thought

Dearest Diogenes,

That is exactly my point and perhaps I am not being eloquent enough in stating it. Yes, our system of government may be screwed up, but some who have posted here give the impression they believe ALL Americans - including you and I who question things - are to be lumped up into one big American bundle and treated as one. I certainly don't hold any grudges against the Afghani people just because their current 'leaders' are misguided (to put it mildly). I feel for these people and wish to help them.

I have no problem with criticism as long as I'm not lumped into a general characterization of an America that someone doesn't like; especially when I try to explain how I am different. I perceived AboveTheRimYo as being exceedingly rude to me for no other reason than that I live in this country.

I am proud of America as a whole, but there are far too many changes that need to be made in our government. I get very frustrated sometimes because I know that, by myself, there isn't a whole lot I can do to change things and the vast majority are unwilling to go against the grain. And then to be mocked by someone I don't even know when I try to express myself is just too frustrating. Especially when he/she admits to baiting. The sarcasm wasn't necessary for the point to be made.

[This message has been edited by DragonMage (edited 10-10-2001).]

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by DragonMage: Guys - Istaron and AboveTheRimYo, for example - the reason I take offense at the tone is that I am aware of the fact that, while some people and some whole countries think America is great, other people and countries don't. That's fine. But what I wish you would understand is that not ALL American citizens are what is projected. We have no more say - ultimately - in what our government does than you do in yours. It keeps coming across to me that you seem to hold 'we, the people' responsible when this country isn't for 'we, the people' anymore - not really. Yes, we vote on our leaders, but anyone we vote on can screw up. How are we, the individuals, now responsible for their decisions? I certainly have no say in whether or not we declare war. It just seems that those of you who have a bad view of America and Americans due to our GOVERNMENT'S decisions are saying that we are all bad and are happy about everything. Some are, some aren't. But being rude or sarcastic certainly isn't going to get you taken seriously. And insulting people - ATRY - is going to get you ignored in the end instead of having your views considered. Oh! I don't know why I bother! You've decided we're all a bunch of bullies. [This message has been edited by DragonMage (edited 10-10-2001).]

DM, you said a mouthful! I have friends in several countries. Some are postive about the US and some quite negative about governmental actions. NONE are deliberately rude, condescending or insulting to me, personally. Yes, we do disagree, but never try to provoke anger and frustration in each other.

I long ago decided it was imprudent to argue politics and religion. Sometimes I forget myself and post here and there, usually hoping to make my viewpoint known without flaming anyone or shoving it down their throats. Hopefully that is how it comes across, because I don't like seeing posts that do that sort of thing. Nothing is accomplished by posting the equivalent of "I am right, you are wrong, inferior and completely lacking in intelligence, so kiss my boots."

I like to think that civil discourse gives us insight into each other's lives and maybe makes us more tolerant. I'm afraid that the sniping, baiting and petty name calling only makes us dislike one another and it engenders more of the same.
One thing that has really gotten on my nerves,though is the incessant repetition of points. Member A says "x", Member B says "z" and they repeat it ad infinitum with more and more 'passion' until one or the other adds insult 'y' to the mix. Then members C D and E all have to jump in and we have a nice mess with lots of hurt feelings and unecessary barbs. Someone has to do the mature thing and GIVE up replying! Just let it go!

Ok, I'm done ranting.. and thanks DragonMage, your post was a good one.

Cloudy

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
CloudDragon of the OHF
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

[Prime2U]

Originally posted by Istaron: Eh... what is so stupid with this post? You know, most people look at america as a country full of stupid, arrogant, self-good people. Are you going to be mad at me for thinking so? Well, perhaps you would think that it may be your country's own fault for giving me that attitude! I didn't one day said "Hmm, I would like to have something to disslike... yea, america is good!" And for the aid that america sends... of course they send most in the world, they are the richest country in the world! It would have been strange if they would have been #2. And to the bully-comparation... a bully can give his friends candy you know. And still bullie them. And for Ahfganistan... no evidences that points out Usama Bin Laden as the WTC-destroyer have been published in media. Until the US-goverment makes those evidence official, they do not excist to me. Don't give him, or me, shit for disliking your country, blame yourself and your goverment for giving us the view of you!

I'm sorry, but this post just sounds like a case of penis envy to me. 'Nough said.

[Moridin]

Originally posted by Istaron: And for Ahfganistan... no evidences that points out Usama Bin Laden as the WTC-destroyer have been published in media. Until the US-goverment makes those evidence official, they do not excist to me. Don't give him, or me, shit for disliking your country, blame yourself and your goverment for giving us the view of you!

Why should they make the evidence public? It is common practice to keep evidence secret until a full investigation has been done, and even then the evidence is sometimes not released. The parties that need to see the evidence will see the evidence, I am sure you are not one of those parties

The second part...you can dislike our country all you want, but do not blame our government for your hatred. The problem is that you are not willing to admit that the US has done some good things through it's history too. You only focus on the 'terrible' and 'horrible' things that we have done. I will openly admit that our country is not perfect and that we have made mistakes and continue to do so, but I will also admit that we have accomplished many things that have made your and my life better and the lives of millions of others. Don't blind yourself to one side of the issue, of course you will hate something if you only focus on the negatives!

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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

[DragonMage]

Oh! And thank you Cloudy, Diogenes and all others who actually let me express myself without making me feel as though you think I'm intellectually inferior when we don't agree.

[Prime2U]

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: America has not protected palestine from israel has it? the american goverment has allowed israel to ethinicaly cleanse palestine and supplied them with the weapons to do so.

ummmm...no
That is wrong on so many points.... First I would suggest you look into the events that have transpired around Israel since WW2. Israel didn't actually start the battle. And they aren't trying to ethnically cleane the Palestinians. And we definitely DO protect Palestine, if we didn't there would be much more bloodshed in that area. The problem is, every time we step in there and get the two nations to negotiate a peace it never lasts.

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: Are we to say that America's actions cannot be criticized, because that would be an attack on the American people?

Of course not, but unfortunately the two are often intertwined.

Even in Nazi Germany, not all Germans supported the terrible actions done by Hitler's government. Surely you don't believe that condemning the actions of that Nazi government, even in harsh terms, amounts to condemning the whole German people? Surely one can criticize that goverment without attacking the whole people?

Dunno where you've been, Dio, but quite often that IS the attitude I've come across. Many folk are not as well versed in history as you and most of us here are and they DO equate a movement like that with the whole nation. Wrongfully, of course, but they do it nonetheless. (Ok, sorta OT, but he did mention it! LOL)

I think, as an American, that the American government and its actions in recent history very much need to be criticized. That does not mean i condemn all Americans (which of course would include condemning myself ) Food for thought

At the same time, keep in mind that there are people, yes some are Americans who do NOT agree with you and they have equally valid reasons. Sometimes a stalemate is the best one can do.

Cloudy, who has long since given up chess

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
CloudDragon of the OHF
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

[skywalker]

Originally posted by DragonMage: Oh! And thank you Cloudy, Diogenes and all others who actually let me express myself without making me feel as though you think I'm intellectually inferior when we don't agree.

Oh DragonMage, I feel like that all the time!

Mark

Newest and Humbly Prideful (?) Member of the Illuminati