The Next Schaivo Battle

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by RevRuby: quote: Originally posted by shamrock_uk: I think Mel has a point though RevRuby: the American health system leaves about 50m people without any healthcare (nearly the whole of Britain!).

i never said we were perfect. and as far as better i'm sure it all depends on the study and the opinions of those conducting hte study and interpreting the study. all i have to speak with is my experience. which i did. how ever as far as something not so clear cut, like healthcare in different countries, "good" "better" and "best" are all opinions. according to nearly every comment i have read from mel on the CE forum she feels her country is, if not best worldwide, "better" than mine. i simply hold the same opinion (that my country is the best place for me and my family) and find it offensive that she does not read, or at least does not exhibit in her responses that she has read, whole posts and uses what she picks and chooses to say "we're better than you" to nearly every american on the board. [/QUOTE]You're drawing rather far-fetched and somewhat offensive conclusions now...
Look, I can't speak for Mel, but there are certain aspects of Dutch culture that I personally consider to be a useful progression in civilization, but will take decades, if ever, to be accepted in other countries like the US (or at least in certain states). I'm not saying we're "better" in most of those aspects, but I do believe the Dutch system provides for acceptable measures and laws to tackle issues pertaining the homosexual lifestyle, abortion, prostitution, drugs, euthanasia, etc. in such a manner that our population has accepted it as a part of our rights first, rather than something morally (in)offensive that needs fighting/defending.
So yes, it does surprise me at times that the US lags behind/takes a different path regarding those issues, or a large part of its people just not agreeing with what's basically logical and taken for granted over here nowadays (and sorry for any ivory tower-ish intonation here). But it's cultural differences like these that often get misrepresented in our respective media and often end up in misunderstandings (I mean, I can't even fathom why any country would even have the death penalty, but at your side of the Atlantic you have this strange all-life-is-sacred-so-no-to-abortion / that-guy-is-a-bastard-who-deserves-to-die-so-hip-hip-hurray-to-the-death-penalty thing going on; and yes, I'm using the light-hearted yet somewhat offensive intonation of that last bit on purpose to make a point on how big these differences really are).
There are people on this forum with whom I will never agree with on many of these issues for this reason; I don't even bother with issues that can't be discussed without dragging religion into it anymore because of this huge cultural gap. However, it also divides the members of Ironworks on a number of issues in two very distinctive groups that will roll their eyes at any political/moral claim a representative of the other side is making, urging them to jump to conclusions a little bit more eagerly than they ought to do - a polarizing aspect that makes it almost impossible for any discourse between for example left-oriented Europeans and conservative red state Americans* to steer clear from rabid misunderstandings and stay civilized throughout its entire run. And I guess this is just an example of just such a debate gone awry because of careless conclusion jumping.
And, naturally, because of my ultra-left/evil commie/sodomizing, baby-killing pothead/Old European/ignorant hippie/hellbait/godless heretic background ( ) I obviously take Mel's side in this matter, but I can easily predict someone else coming to your defense while basically making the very same points as I did, while still miraculously managing to disagree with me. Ah, the wonderful world of inter-continental debating...

* (generalization notice, yada yada)

[ 03-23-2005, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

[johnny]

Good speech, think the barbarians pick it up ?

[shamrock_uk]

Why can't I write posts like that?! [img]smile.gif[/img] That has to be one of the best descriptions of the explanations for transatlantic friction I've ever read!

And "Baghdad Bob Johnny" - you crack me up sometimes Timber!

[Timber Loftis]

my ultra-left/evil commie/Old European/ignorant hippie/hellbait/godless heretic background

Well, at least there's something we can agree on. [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img]

but at your side of the Atlantic you have this strange all-life-is-sacred-so-no-to-abortion / that-guy-is-a-bastard-who-deserves-to-die-so-hip-hip-hurray-to-the-death-penalty thing going on

As opposed to the crush-and-flush-an-unwanted-fetus / never-kill-a-bad-guy thing? Just asking.

Good speech, think the barbarians pick it up ?

THAG WILL CRUSH LITTLE MAN!!!!

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by shamrock_uk: And "Baghdad Bob Johnny" - you crack me up sometimes Timber!

It's even funnier than you think. He does standup comedy, too.

[ 03-23-2005, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[johnny]

Originally posted by shamrock_uk: Why can't I write posts like that?! [img]smile.gif[/img] That has to be one of the best descriptions of the explanations for transatlantic friction I've ever read! And "Baghdad Bob Johnny" - you crack me up sometimes Timber!

Timber wasn't even trying to be funny, he just called me by my other name. Want to broaden your horizons ?

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: quote: but at your side of the Atlantic you have this strange all-life-is-sacred-so-no-to-abortion / that-guy-is-a-bastard-who-deserves-to-die-so-hip-hip-hurray-to-the-death-penalty thing going on

As opposed to the crush-and-flush-an-unwanted-fetus / never-kill-a-bad-guy thing? Just asking.
[/QUOTE]Ah, but then we'll get into the entire "when does life begin, really?" debate, and I forgot to bring my wellies for the excrement-fest it inevitably spawns.

[Timber Loftis]

Ah, but then we'll get into the entire "when does life begin, really?" debate

Not to state a position or start a debate on the merits of the abortion issue, and JUST to point out how it can be erroneous to think your country has something figured out:
I bet if you checked, you'll find that under your laws a fetus is life. To wit, I'll bet you someone who stabs and kills a pregnant woman gets charged for TWO murders.

In our country, the law doesn't define a fetus to be a non-human. Rather, it allows the mother the right of abortion. In other words, the mother has a right to destroy that life that no other person has, because her liberty interests trump whatever interests that life has at that point. And it undeniably has some rights, because if anyone else kills that life, it's murder.

That's the LAW, and I'm not saying it's RIGHT. However, I'm willing to bet you that in your country, it's pretty much the same under your law. So, while you may see it as a "when does life begin" question, I'll bet you your government has already spoken on the issue, and declared a fetus a life -- one that may be aborted by the mother.

Just an FYI -- and CERTAINLY [img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img] And, sorry for that.

[shamrock_uk]

But apparently it wasn't Federal law in 2003..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2940372.stm


In the UK the foetus is only recognised as an independent legal entity if it can survive independent of her.

"1.1 Subject to the proof by the prosecution of the requisite intent in either case: whether the crimes of murder or manslaughter can be committed where unlawful injury is deliberately inflicted: (i) to a child in utero (ii) to a mother carrying a child in utero where the child is subsequently born alive, enjoys an existence independent of the mother, thereafter dies and the injuries inflicted while in utero either caused or made a substantial contribution to the death. "1.2 Whether the fact that the death of the child is caused solely as a consequence of injury to the mother rather than as a consequence of direct injury to the foetus can negative any liability for murder or manslaughter in the circumstances set out in question 1.1."

It seems to be a sensible way to look at things...

[ 03-23-2005, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

[Grojlach]

Hmm, I really should have added "I don't care either way" to my previous post - I wasn't putting up a disclaimer about the claim that spawned your comment for no reason. Abortion is one of those issues of which I've made my mind up ages ago and refrain from debating altogether*, so I'm also not the veteran semantics-juggler that you apparently need to be to even have a convincing shot at participating in the eternal loop of religion-involved debating - as demonstrated above. Thanks for putting me in my place, in any case - however, I *do* believe shamrock's remark re: independent survival is actually correct and goes for Dutch law just the same, even though I haven't been able to find the Dutch law entry on it on the 'Net as of yet to back up that claim.

* Ye olde "debating on the Internet is like running in the special olympics", anyone?

[ 03-23-2005, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]