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[Sir Taliesin]

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: You do realize that this is the second rebellion in Haiti.. and that the first was stopped with US intervention and left with Aristide remaining in power only due to US support? You ask if those people are wrong to overthrow their government.. Yet ten years ago your country decided that they were wrong to overthrow their government and acted to keep scumbag Aristade in power. Just some perspective on Haiti. [/QB]

Actually, in the Mid 90's we restored a POPULARILY ELECTED Aristide to his rightful place after he was overthrown in a military coup. Since then Aristide has shown that he has about as much business running a Govenment as Mugabe in Zimbabwe does. In the last elections in 2000, no one, not even the UN would legitimize the ballot procedure. Apparently the longer he was in power the more corrupt the Government got.

And I see today the the French are calling for Aristide to step down and an international force move in to police Haiti till a new Government can be installed/elected.

Also I, in no way said it was wrong for people to overthrow their Government. On the contrary, I think it is the people's responsiblity to remove a corrupt and despotic regime if they are governed by such a regime! I cheered on the Indian rebellion that happened in Mexico some years back. I also cheered the peaceful rebellion against the despotic so-called "Communist" regime in China in the late '80s. As well, the revolution that ultimately brought Yeltsin to power in Russia.

Davros, I hope for all your sakes that if ever we have a despotic regime take over the United States, that there will be some backbone in this country to pick up a deer rifle and go after said despotic ruler. Otherwise woe be to the world, because it's for sure no one else will try to do anything about it!
And I agree that currently, that is very unlikely to happen, but given some more 9/11s and who knows what we may face. It could be like the days of Rome all over again. What is it they say, Men who don't learn from History are doomed to repeat it.

[Djinn Raffo]

Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: Since then Aristide has shown that he has about as much business running a Govenment as Mugabe in Zimbabwe does. In the last elections in 2000, no one, not even the UN would legitimize the ballot procedure. Apparently the longer he was in power the more corrupt the Government got.

Aristide is no worse now than he was in 94.

[Gab]

Oblivion, I'll have to agree to disagree. I think it's crap the way you put. If a burglar doesn't plan to kill you, then he won't likely bring a gun , it's that simple. Having a burglar alarm (like I've said numerous times before!!) is the best solution. If a burglar plans to kill someone or he's afraid of witnesses , then he'll likely bring a gun with him. You usaully can't do much to stop him then , even with a gun. Many people keep their guns locked away. If it's the middle of night and they're fast asleep (most aren't very light sleepers like you) and suddenly get woken up the presence of a theif, the person won't likely respond quick enough nor is the theif going to wait for someone to get their gun. Plus the theif is more likely to shoot if someone is armed. The only benifit I can see from having gun is that if the burglar doesn't have a gun or any other weapon, the person might be able to scare them off, but then again an alarm is usually just fine at scaring the burglar away.

You're statements about rights about countries being dictorships because of gun control is absurd. Canada has gun control and has never had dictorship or even came close. You can say the same for Britain. I'd dare even say that the United States has come closer. It's quit deluisonal with today's democracy. Besides, even if there was a dictatorship, the government would have the military under it's control (it must be pretty weak if it doesn't and could be overthrown by a mob) wich has far more dangerous weapons (machine guns, bombs, tanks, flamethrowers, etc).

Sure you can kill someone with a knife or bat. Fists??!!! That'll be really hard. Someone would have a much easier time killing a bunch of people with a gun rather than a knife or fists. Plus there's not much the person can do to defend themselfs.

[ 02-25-2004, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: Gab ]

[Sir Taliesin]

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: Aristide is no worse now than he was in 94.

Probably not, but at the time, he had won a legitimate election and had been overthrown in a military coup. Most of the world was on our side then. No one knew just how corrupt he would turn out to be or at least how niave he turned out to be. I think the jury is still out on that. Is he corrupt or just stupid?

Personally, I am of the opinion that the French are right in this. He needs to step down and an International Force needs to come in and administer Haiti till such time as the Haitian people can run their on country.

[Sir Taliesin]

Gab, here's some interesting articles and studies for you to read about Gun control in Canada and else where.

Here
Here
Here
Here
Here

Enjoy!

[Oblivion437]

Gab, you've been arguing on semantics top to bottom the whole time, don't start demeaning my arguments...

The United States may be coming closer, but we've been slowly imposing controls on firearms ownership for 70 years.

You don't seem to know much about break-ins in general, and don't want to present your argument about how gun control can protect us from some perceived threat derived from common-ownership and education in the matter thereof as pertains to firearms. I shall thusly conclude that you don't want to believe society can protect itself, and would rather submit to the encroaching nanny state. Fine with me, retreat to the pods like the klone creature you desire to be, but you're going to be just as externally dependent upon the mercies of those around you to save you from such an existance that will yield nothing more than what those who control it will allow it to yield.

And, let's face it, could Stalin have murdered 20 million soviet citizens if most citizens carried arms? I think not. Also, you don't understand how in Canada, you're dependant, more heavily than I think you can understand, or will understand, upon others for your security. You don't seem to grasp the concept of how this is a threat to your freedoms and personal rights.

Also, we have as much right to any conventional weaponry as any other body of power. I don't view Nuclear weapons as conventional, and in fact feel that they're useless strategically speaking. The undeployable ordinance, and a means to rattle sabres among world powers.

You can't stand up to what I have to say, so you'll say, "we'll agree to disagree..."

Also, you don't seem to know much about fighting either. A man by the name of Jimmy "The Gent" Burke once beat a man to death with his bare hands, he was only 16 at the time and the guy he killed was an enforcer for an independent gangster. It was one of the few things he did outside of a prison at the time. He was only out a total of 86 days over a six year period, that being the first of those years. One time he grabbed a man by the tie and slammed his chin into a wooden table so hard both the guys jawbones shattered, and then he used a black jack to split the man's skull open. It took all of three seconds to kill the man this way. There was a fight in a bar in Chicago one time when Frank Rosenthal was a bookie for the bosses there, and a man was beaten so thoroughly in under a minute by a couple of men with their bare hands, that they destroyed his kidneys, the nervous connections to both his legs, and rendered him a deaf/mute cripple for the rest of his days. He died in a hospital years later. You'd be surprised how terrible one can be without any help or training. Wiseguys weren't really trained to fight, they just learned. These aren't great fighters, they're just plain vicious. They aren't alone, others possess an ability to do what they must, a psychological will that allows for violence, that encourages it. Anyone can sink to it, and the base, unhinged violence you're talking about predicates that a gun, or lack thereof, won't stop them or start them. Also, an abusive father or mother can quite easily beat their small children to death. And swinging a fist is a far more impulse driven act than pulling a gun, cocking it, flipping off the safety and then pulling the trigger.

[Davros]

Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: Davros, I hope for all your sakes that if ever we have a despotic regime take over the United States, that there will be some backbone in this country to pick up a deer rifle and go after said despotic ruler. Otherwise woe be to the world, because it's for sure no one else will try to do anything about it! And I agree that currently, that is very unlikely to happen, but given some more 9/11s and who knows what we may face. It could be like the days of Rome all over again. What is it they say, Men who don't learn from History are doomed to repeat it.

Sure the saying says history repeats, but really - are you asking me to believe a despotic grab is possible under the current system? The legslature and the party system have take over.

No guy can lead for longer than 2 terms - man, that is a great rule that I wish all countries would adopt. It's the ones that have the potential to rule for ever that never want to let the power go. Every 4 years you trot off to the people and ask have I done a good enough job for you to keep me, and they decide if you are too much crap for them to stomach for anther 4 years or not. While in power your rulers are at the very least concerned for the 50% of the populace that voted them in, and trying to woo another few % more to shore up victory next time. No one can come to power and act the total prat under the party system, because either the people (at election) or the party (to save face with the people) will turf out the crazed and the greedy.

I hark again then that the right to bear arms to maintain the potential to overthrow unjust self governance is a nonsense in this day and age. It is a dinosaur piece of legislation that should have been reviewed and renewed years ago. If you ask yourself who are the major proponents for its retention it is (by majority) the gun lobbyists. The fiction that they need preserved the right to one day overthrow the government is a sham - what they do want preserved is the right to access weapons that the 2nd amendment permits. It don't mater if it is good legislation or bad, current or outdated - if it supports the argument that they can go get hardware when they want it then it's good legislation according to the NRA.

[Timber Loftis]

Gab, you don't lock all your guns away. You lock them all away but one -- the one under your bed. Otherwise, you're right, the intruder would be unstoppable. But if you've got the gun pointed at the bedroom door, you've got a chance.

On the revolution topic, no one mentioned the Velvet Revolution and how that fits into the equation.

Oh, and Sir T, I applaud your efforts to make sure we don't think you are advocating revolution. IIRC, it's illegal to do so. And, we certainly wouldn't ascribe such sentiments to you.

[Djinn Raffo]

Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: Gab, here's some interesting articles and studies for you to read about Gun control in Canada and else where. Here Here Here Here Here Enjoy!

Enjoy! Period.

[Oblivion437]

That article admits that the tie is at best tangential, inferred, or plain made up.

Also, it fails to compare data over a period of time, something done in one of the other articles. Also of significance are the department of Justice's compiled statistics on the subject, including the relevance of firearm violence in general when considering that far more people are murdered, most brutally, by other means. Human beings have been chopping/bashing/poisoning eachother on a literally biblical scale for millenia. All the introduction of firearms has done is further amplify the fact that we're not getting any more civil. It could even be contended the first weapons were manufactured by bandits for the express purpose of raiding other camps and stealing their food. Some bandits would even consume their victims, out of necessity. Violence is not new, nor is violence with firearms, nor is it a particularly serious phenomena, when compared to said stabbings/bludgeonings/poisonings...