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01-20-2002, 05:39 PM
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#91 |
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Quintesson
 Join Date: March 17, 2001
Location: Where I am.
Posts: 1,089
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I'm with Sazerac: I haven't seen any posts poking fun at either Roman Catholics or Roman Catholicism.
I didn't make myself clear. it's not the image of satan I was talking about but the worshipping of satan. see here's how it was explained to me: back when total monarchy was establish and the "chain of command" went like this. god then pope then king. some people didn't like this so when they opposed the ?clergy?(I think was the name used) they opposed god himself thus being on the side of satan. so they where labled "satanists." and from what I was told they were the first labled that. So you're actually writing about people knowingly worshipping Satan, as opposed to being accused of worshipping Satan: I see. What you've described above sounds like Church propaganda, from the mid and late medieval period when the Roman Catholic Church supported strong monarchies in order to bolster itself. (Later on, the Church became strong enough to challenge strong monarchies, and did so, very loudly.) Then it did indeed claim that anybody who was opposing the King was opposing God's Annoited, for the King was meant to be the secular arm of God, just as the Church was meant to be the Sacred. As far as anybody can tell today, nobody in fact was worshipping Satan at the time. [ 01-20-2002: Message edited by: fable ] |
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01-20-2002, 08:39 PM
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#92 |
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20th Level Warrior
 Join Date: May 3, 2001
Location: .
Age: 40
Posts: 2,762
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quote: Well than lucky I dont have religious beliefs [img]tongue.gif[/img] Since I believe that the "one all powerful being" belief is TOTAL crap. But then thats just MHO 
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01-20-2002, 10:20 PM
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#93 |
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Very Mad Bird
 Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
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quote: Vishnu is "The Preserver" of the Hindu "Big Trio" of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. Creator, Preserver and Destroyer. Thus he in no way correlates to the Creator YHWH of Judaeo-Christianity. Nor Allah. Morever, Hinduism is Pantheistic, the opposite of Monotheism. Everything is God under Pantheism. Monotheism declares a Creator personality seperate from the creation. Finally, ask anyone who has left Buddhism or Hinduism for Christianity if any Buddhist/Hindu deities correlate to Jesus, and you will get a resounding No. I worked recently with a guy who was a medium in the Buddhist faith. He spoke of how he watched a possessed priest riding atop a seat of broken pottery and glass, suddenly have his possessing spirit leave him. In a flash the guy was able to feel pain and started bleeding, jumping down from his exalted seat. Eventually the spirit returned and he got back onto the seat. This event promted a search that ended up in my friend leaving his respected position in the Buddhist temple, and ended up in him becoming the worship leader of a 13,000 member Christian Church. He has pure joy radiating from his very being, and every westerner I know of who has met or worked with him (including myself), is struck by his humility, his joy, his creative spark and his genuine warmth. His life speaks more to me than anything I've ever read on Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity or Islam. [ 01-20-2002: Message edited by: Yorick ] |
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01-20-2002, 11:08 PM
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#94 |
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Quintesson
Join Date: March 17, 2001
Location: Where I am.
Posts: 1,089
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Morever, Hinduism is Pantheistic, the opposite of Monotheism. Everything is God under Pantheism. Monotheism declares a Creator personality seperate from the creation.
I think you may be confusing some very different terms, here. Monotheism is the belief in one god. Polytheism is the belief in a muiltiplicity of gods. Pantheism is a complex concept that involves a degree of identity between the god or gods that are being worshipped, and all of the universe. There are some worshippers of Hinduism who believe all creation is an aspect of Krishna--hence, polytheism seen as a variety of masks donned by the Ultimate Creator. And there are some revered Church Fathers (such as Origen and Clement of Alexandria) and Christian mystics who believe the Christian God and His creation are one, after a variety of fashions. This view, which can be equated at least in some sense with pantheism, applies as well to many Judaic scholars and groups through history, most notably the renowned Spinoza. To be sure, the Roman Catholic Church has repeatedly condemned pantheism by name--as for instance, in the First Vatican Council. ("We anathmatize those who assert that the substance or essence of God and of all things is one and the same, or that all things evolve from God's essence.") However, the question is very complex, and the RCC has refrained from condemning those mystics within the Church who speak or write of personal Union with God or the shared essence of God in all things, despite this being clearly within the pale of RCC-defined pantheism. Official church policy would therefore appear to be at odds with unofficial acceptance of pantheistic ideas, as long as that pantheism is confined to the individual, and not spread as an RCC policy. In any case, the situation for both Hinduism and Christianity would appear to be far from the black and white case that you state, if I understand you correctly, above. Finally, ask anyone who has left Buddhism or Hinduism for Christianity if any Buddhist/Hindu deities correlate to Jesus, and you will get a resounding No. Buddhism doesn't worship any gods at all, so why should the issue of Christ arise? As to Hinduism, you bet it does: The Hindu deity who correlates to Jesus is...Jesus. Hinduism is an inclusive religion, and when the Jesuits first arrived on the sub-continent, they were horrified to discover that the local acceptance of Catholicism which was actually an acceptance of Christ into the Hindu pantheon. This equates to the presence of Jesus in the main religion of South America, Santaria, where Christ, Mary, and some of the saints are worshipped alongside African deities and local patron saints, frequently under the administration of a Thunder God or War Goddess. This event promted a search that ended up in my friend leaving his respected position in the Buddhist temple, and ended up in him becoming the worship leader of a 13,000 member Christian Church. He has pure joy radiating from his very being, and every westerner I know of who has met or worked with him (including myself), is struck by his humility, his joy, his creative spark and his genuine warmth. His life speaks more to me than anything I've ever read on Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity or Islam. I have seen this, as well, within a variety of faiths. I would suggest that the particular faith itself is not as important as the belief and energy channeled into and through that faith by the worshipper in question. [ 01-21-2002: Message edited by: fable ] |
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01-21-2002, 12:41 AM
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#95 |
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Very Mad Bird
Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
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Originally posted by fable:
There are some worshippers of Hinduism who believe all creation is an aspect of Krishna--hence, polytheism (which I suspect you meant, and not pantheism) is really just a variety of masks used by the Creator. And there are some revered Church Fathers (such as Origen and Clement of Alexandria) and Christian mystics who believe the Christian God and His creation are one, after a variety of fashions. This view, which can be equated at least in some sense with pantheism, applies as well to some Judaic scholars, such as the renowned Spinoza. To be sure, the Roman Catholic Church has repeatedly condemned pantheism by name--as for instance, in the First Vatican Council. ("We anathmatize those who assert that the substance or essence of God and of all things is one and the same, or that all things evolve from God's essence.") However, the question is very complex, and the RCC has refrained from condemning those mystics within the Church who speak or write of personal Union with God or the shared essence of God in all things, despite this being clearly within the pale of RCC-defined pantheism. Official church policy would therefore appear to be at odds with unofficial acceptance of pantheistic ideas, as long as that pantheism is confined to the individual, and not spread as an RCC policy. In any case, the situation for both Hinduism and Christianity would appear to be far from the black and white case that you state, if I understand you correctly, above. Fable, I indeed meant pantheism, not polytheism. Though many Gods are worshipped, all are from the one source. Unlike Christianity, truths of the faith are prized secrets rather than freely dispensed 'good news', thus - as in the case of many Hindus and Buddhists - many can and are ignorant of the deeper truths of their religion. In many conversations I had with Buddhists in Asia, I frequently found myself in possesion of more knowledge of Buddhas own teaching than practitioners. Of course this could be found within Christianity I suppose, however, the main truths of Christianity are comparitively simple and widely known. These truths include the belief in a seperate creator. No matter what some past Alexandrian mystics may or may not have believed, the accepted theology amongst practicing Christians, Jews and Islamics today is that. Plenty of offshoot theologies have arisen during Church history, and plenty have died off. The central theologies remain constant. Buddhism doesn't worship any gods at all, so why should the issue of Christ arise? As to Hinduism, you bet it does: The Hindu deity who correlates to Jesus is...Jesus. Hinduism is an inclusive religion, and when the Jesuits first arrived on the sub-continent, they were horrified to discover that the local acceptance of Catholicism which was actually an acceptance of Christ into the Hindu pantheon. This equates to the presence of Jesus in the main religion of South America, Santaria, where Christ, Mary, and some of the saints are worshipped alongside African deities and local patron saints, frequently under the administration of a Thunder God or War Goddess. Buddhism doesn't worship any Gods? Then why are there Buddhist temples to assorted gods throughout Asia? BUDDHA decried worship of gods because they are supposed to be caught up in the Karmic cycle along with everyone else, but I assure you many BUDDHISTS have either ignored or reinterpreted that teaching. Regarding Buddhism it was not I who equated Buddha with Christ, but another poster. I'd argue the two were totally different. Buddha shows a way - Christ IS a way. Regarding your assertion that Hinduism is inclusive is true in theory, but not so in practice. I personally know ex-Hindus here in New York, disowned by their Hindu families in India for following Christ. As long as a person calls themself Hindu, they are included. Once they call themself something else they are outcast. The same is true of ex-Buddhist friends in south east Asia of mine. I have differing information regarding the early Christians in India you speak of. They were, and are still descended from Christians who recieved the baptism of the Apostle Thomas. A Sri Lankan preacher assures me that they are/were indeed Christian, and not merely incorperating Jesus ito the pantheon. The same group established Christian Churches in China, all of which predate western missionary activity, thus predating the 'Catholocism' of which you speak. [ 01-21-2002: Message edited by: Yorick ] |
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01-21-2002, 07:33 AM
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#96 |
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Mephistopheles
 Join Date: August 30, 2001
Location: deep within the sylvan splendor....
Age: 60
Posts: 1,443
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quote: Neb, Neb, Neb... I didn't say I *never* danced under the full moon in my birthday suit--but fable is right about the chilblains and the 'squiter bites! Not to mention we live on Main St. in a *very* small, *very* "Christian" (and I use that in quotes to differentiate those who *are* Chrisitan and those who merely pay lip service 6 days a week) midwest, Bible-belt town! I keep my dancing private out of 1. consideration for their beliefs (nudity in public is a no-no as well as against their worship) and 2. it would be a little embarassing to explain the sheriff's spotlight on my back yard [img]smile.gif[/img] . But darlin, if you wanna know how to do it--you need to come right on over here!!! Let ol' Garnet show you a few shimmy-shakes! .Yorick, glad to see you've popped in. [img]smile.gif[/img] I was wondering where you were. Holidays good? Thanks for posting the info on your Buddhist experience(s). As you can tell, we've digressed a little from the original premise, but no discourse on satanism this time. Oh (can't remember who asked now) Wiccans are pagans but *not* all pagans are Wiccans. That's the right way around now. Kind of like All Baptists are Christian but not all Christians are Baptist. who's Catholic bashing? I haven't noticed anyone! I did teasingly refer to Baptist-bashing to Cerek, but such is *not* to be permitted here! At any rate.......
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"Nature tells every secret once." Ralph Waldo Emerson |
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01-21-2002, 10:10 AM
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#97 |
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Quintesson
Join Date: March 17, 2001
Location: Where I am.
Posts: 1,089
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Fable, I indeed meant pantheism, not polytheism. Though many Gods are worshipped, all are from the one source. Unlike Christianity, truths of the faith are prized secrets rather than freely dispensed 'good news', thus - as in the case of many Hindus and Buddhists - many can and are ignorant of the deeper truths of their religion.
Yorick, hi. With respect, I think you're again confusing two different religious concepts: pantheism, and Gnosticism. The latter is a concept that denotes religions who hold their are special, inner truths, which can only be shared with those who are "prepared." In Roman Catholicism, for example, this equates to the reservation of the Eucharist for those of the Faith: even though non-religionists can know intimate details about it, they can't *experience* it. However, that's only one (very important) detail: Gnostic religions are usually filled with special teachings reserved for an inner circle. And I can't think of a pantheist religion today (with the exception of some rural versions of the ancient, once popular Manichean religion, which still exists in some small mid-Eastern communities) that holds to this view. On the other hand, all sects of Buddhism and Hinduism, which you mention, have published not just their religious books, but long, involved commentaries on them--they hide nothing. Except, of course, the right attitude towards comprehending their scriptures, which is hidden from anybody who approaches any religion with a derisive attitude. In many conversations I had with Buddhists in Asia, I frequently found myself in possesion of more knowledge of Buddhas own teaching than practitioners. Of course this could be found within Christianity I suppose, however, the main truths of Christianity are comparitively simple and widely known. I can't evaluate your experiences in Asia or know how much you comprehend of the philosophy of Buddhism--but you did refer above to Buddhist deities, which does appear to point to a lack of knowledge about this religion, since there are no deities in Buddhism; no disrespect meant. As for Christianity, its truths are somewhat more complex than the classic Three Teachings of Buddha, which can summarize his teaching for even the simplest to grasp; and in any case, simplicity isn't necessarily a virtue, or a vice. Besides, many Christians differ upon fundamental tenets of their own religion. For some, God is three-in-one; for some, there's only one. For some, the holiest ritual is the celebration of the Eucharist; for others, that is a ridiculous service. Certainly, trinitarianism is a key sticking point among Christians whose diagreement (and wars) over the issue cannot be brushed to one side. Buddhism doesn't worship any Gods? Then why are there Buddhist temples to assorted gods throughout Asia? BUDDHA decried worship of gods because they are supposed to be caught up in the Karmic cycle along with everyone else, but I assure you many BUDDHISTS have either ignored or reinterpreted that teaching. Have you ever spoken to a Buddhist monk or nun? Those aren't gods being worshipped in a temple, but Buddhist worshippers themselves, who were transfigured beyond the karma wheel by an understanding of doctrine. Again, according to Buddhism, many remain within existence (Bodhissatvas) to assist others in achieving the same goal, and the prayers of Buddhists are aimed to this goal. Regarding your assertion that Hinduism is inclusive is true in theory, but not so in practice. I personally know ex-Hindus here in New York, disowned by their Hindu families in India for following Christ. As long as a person calls themself Hindu, they are included. Once they call themself something else they are outcast. You are not referring here to the worship of Christ within the established parameters of Hinduism, but to ex-Hindus (as you say, yourself) who have given up the religion for Christianity. There's a world of difference. I have differing information regarding the early Christians in India you speak of. They were, and are still descended from Christians who recieved the baptism of the Apostle Thomas. A Sri Lankan preacher assures me that they are/were indeed Christian, and not merely incorperating Jesus ito the pantheon. The same group established Christian Churches in China, all of which predate western missionary activity, thus predating the 'Catholocism' of which you speak. There are published diaries of Jesuit missionaries who came to India and discovered Nestorian communities; more to the point, those communities still exist in India. If there had been Roman Catholic or Orthodox communities and churches established in India or China before the arrival of the Jesuits, one would have expected the new missionaries to express surprise or delight--the first emotion is certainly present when they encountered the Nestorians.  But the Jesuits are silent upon this issue in diaries and in letters sent back to the Pope. Nor is it likely they would keep such a monumental development a secret--after all, they didn't keep the Nestorians a secret, and their letters are surprisingly frank and filled with details of even their own failures.I have to wonder if this isn't a case of the phenomenon known as "cultural predating," in which people of a given faith or society, in order to give themselves a greater sense of security and establish their religious credentials with other members of their community, elsewhere, fictionalize a much older origin for themselves. Thus, the Royal French, who wanted to stand on equal footing with the older Romans, instead of being a bunch of Gaulish invaders, theorized a landing by Aeneas (one of Priam's sons, in the Trojan War) on the French shores, and dated themselves from that. Some English, not wishing to be regarded as Christian Johnny-come-latelies, stated that John of Capodoccia had brought the holy vessel used by Christ at the Last Supper to their shores, where he died, and where the the venerated object remains hidden except for the pure. This is also very much a case with religious communities. But if you have knowledge of such ancient Christian communities that preceded the arrival of Jesuit missionaries existing in China, can you point me to some works of historical authenticity and accuracy that discuss them? I would honestly love to read about them. Thanks. [ 01-21-2002: Message edited by: fable ] |
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01-21-2002, 10:16 AM
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#98 |
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Account deleted by Request
Join Date: May 17, 2001
Location: .
Age: 38
Posts: 8,802
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quote: Oh? You think you can teach me? [img]tongue.gif[/img] Well sure! I'll drop by someday when it's a full moon! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
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01-21-2002, 10:17 AM
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#99 |
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Baaz Draconian
 Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: ?
Age: 40
Posts: 729
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quote: ?? ok I can see what you mean but fable discribed it quite well and you just kinda confused me. ok here is what I read " all pagans are wiccan but not all wiccans are pagans." now if I understood fable right then what I read was more or less true. so why do you say otherwise?
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 &Neil <br />Winner of both \'Arledrian\'s Weirdest Thread of 2003 Award\'<br />And the \'Most pointless thread Lavindathar Has Ever Seen Award 2002\'
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01-21-2002, 10:28 AM
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#100 |
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Account deleted by Request
Join Date: May 17, 2001
Location: .
Age: 38
Posts: 8,802
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quote: Wiccans are pagans, that's how it is. And some pagans are wiccans. |
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