Illinois Death Row Clemency

[WillowIX]

Hmm nice off topic debate guys. [img]tongue.gif[/img] At least TL tried to bring it back to topic.

I am not going to debate anything really. To me, killing a man or woman is wrong, period! Trying to save lives really don´t fit with death penalty. You are all welcome to disagree. Of course if you do disagree, I will call you an idiot (j/k and LLAO!!! ).

On to some notes then.

Death by stoning is not a way oppressing regimes treat their citizens (I think this is MagiK´s words) (you did say you like lime right? )). Within Sharia law, there are a group of "Hadd" offenses such as pre-marital sexual intercourse, sex by divorced persons, post-marital sex, adultery, false accusation of unlawful intercourse, drinking alcohol, theft, and highway robbery. Hadd sexual offenses carry a sentence of stoning to death or severe flogging. Sharia law itself is derived from:
a) the Muslim holy book, the Qur'an (believed to be the Word of God) and
b) from Sunna, the practices of the prophet Muhammad.
So in SOME muslim country Sharia law is the law.

Originally posted by Homer: I thought the U.S. was a democracy, this sound like dictatorship. One man making a blanket decision based on his own beliefs is not democratic.

I take it you are against the presidential institution as well then? I don´t remember what the different form of democracy is called any more. Although we are using governers as our representatives and therefore one must have faith in them to represent our views.

OK people, feel free to bite my head off.

Willow! The USA is a Representative Republic with a democratic form of government. We are NOT a true democracy, a fact that is very important. True Democracy is nothing more than "MOB RULE".

[madjim]

To All: The prison in Arizona somebody was referring to is Maricopa County. The Sherrif is the oft re-elected Joe Arpaio. Liberals and criminals hate him. He set up a tent city as a jail- no airconditioning, cable tv, cigarets, porno magazines, or caffeine. Since the county was losing so much clothing to theft - he dyed all the prsion issue underwear pink. Guess what no more theft. There was once a riot there. The scum wanted their porno and cigarets back, no more tents, etc. Sherrif Joe gave them one more Johnny on the Spot portable toilet.!!!Thats it.

Whether there is a deterent effect of the death penalty or not is argueable. Most who are against it say there isn't - of course thier stats are based on intereviewing convicted murderers - who say they the fear of the death penalty didn't stop them.

Is the death penalty revenge? Is it a safety measure to protect society? I think it is both. One of the problems with life sentences is very often it ain't. In some states murderers are up for parole in 7 years. Dear Charles Manson, Sirhan Sirhan on other lovelies are up for parole in California. The other possibilty is escape. A convicted murderer by the name of Johnson from Pennsylvania ( a movie was made about him starring Cristopher Walken) escaped a few years ago and people from 4 counties were afraid to leave thier homes.

How much protection for society from this filth is enough - only the knowledge that they are dead or lobotomized is enough for me.

One guy has blanched by my "emotional descriptions"- of course he has thats why I used them. People that feel sorry for the convicts see them all cleaned up and polite - like animals in a zoo. Try interacting with the cute tigers or grizzly bears when they aren't behind bars - but free and in their natural habitat.

Of course I have seen the victims where the majority of you havent. Ever seen a wheel chair bound veteran beaten to death for his disability check? I have.

[quietman1920]

I Told you people yesterday that unless you agreed to disagree on this subject, you'd end up frustrated, angry, and possibly trading emotional posts with each other. Maybe that 'scroll of precognition' was stronger than thought. Still, its another day. We don't Really hate each other or want to go on calling names, do we? I didn't think so.

Look, some people feel one way, some feel another. No One is Wrong...people just have different points of view. Accepting that and even using that to our advantage (diversity) is a mark of growth as a human being. Now, if there are no objections, lets see if there's some cold Guinness on tap at the pub. I think we all might have worked up a thirst...

[Cerek the Barbaric]

OK, fair enough Donut. I stand corrected and concede that you and Barry the Sprout have scientific studies to back up your assertions.

It still doesn't make any sense to me, but I admitted I could be completely wrong.

Timber - To bring this thread back to the original topic....I was initially appalled at the Governor's sweeping clemency. Since he had just released 4 Death Row inmates from jail a day or two before, I thought he had done the same thing with the rest of the inmates. I was greatly relieved to learn that he had only commuted the Death sentence, but that the prisoners were going to stay in prison.

In regards to your previous post that the Governor was motivated to do this based on his own personal morals rather than as a gesture to gain political clout - I will have to say that I admire him for sacrificing his future political career rather than compromising his morals. I don't completely agree with his decision, but I respect the motivation behind it.

HolyWarrior - First of all, WELCOME TO IRONWORKS!!! I hope you enjoy yourself here.

Second of all, your post in this thread is NOT the way to make that happen. I don't know if you have been on other forums, but the general attitude of your post is not "acceptable behavior" here at IronWorks. I'm not a Mod and I'm not pretending to be one. I'm just giving you some friendly advice about the general protocal here in General Discussion. Mutual respect for all members - even those you disagree with strongly - is not only encouraged, it is required.

[WillowIX]

Originally posted by MagiK: Willow! The USA is a Representative Republic with a democratic form of government. We are NOT a true democracy, a fact that is very important. True Democracy is nothing more than "MOB RULE".

You know what MagiK, I really don´t care about the US government. But then I really don´t care about the Canadian either. It was merely an attempt to a witty reply. And now you´ve spoiled it. [img]tongue.gif[/img] Watch it or I´ll start writing your name in pink!

Edit: I hope you know there´s absolutely no grudge against you in this thread MagiK. I think you do, but I wanted to make certain. [img]smile.gif[/img] You know I wuv you right? [img]graemlins/kissy2.gif[/img]

[ 01-15-2003, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: WillowIX ]

[Davros]

Originally posted by Donut: quote: Originally posted by HolyWarrior: Originally posted by Yorick: The issue is, the rest of the western world has a huge problem with the punishment. Call someone who gives a damn. I couldn't care less what a bunch of Eurotwits think.:sneer: NO OTHER NATION IN THE WEST KILLS IT'S CITIZENS LIKE AMERICA. Saudi Arabia, China Iraq and America lead the world in numbers of citizens it's government kills. Try living in Saudi Arabia, etc. before comparing our justice system to theirs. BTW, that should be "its". And since no other nation IS America, what's your point? :hmmm: I for one see NO DIFFERENCE between murder and execution. Taking a life, is taking a life. In executing, the state becomes a murderer. Must you be a monster to punish a monster? Can you not see that in repaying evil for evil you become evil? {i]Jayzus, boy, look in the bloody dictionary. There is a BIG difference between murder and execution. Murder is the taking of innocent life. Execution is the elimination of those who murder, m'kay?:sigh:[/i] The issue is not what the criminal gets, but what does society become. Wrongo! The issue IS and ONLY IS what the criminal gets. Criminal gets a swift execution for committing murder. Rest of society gets message. What are you becoming? As part of the nation, you are as guilty as the executioner of taking human life. Of ending a humans existence. Now. What if there's a mistake? Just say that the human you killed is innocent. No guilt at all. The executioner sent a murderer to his just rewards. Let me guess, you oppose war, and want to be a human shield in Baghdad If this is the best you bleeding hearts can do, give up. [img]graemlins/rant.gif[/img]

A well reasoned and well constructed post which has greatly added to the quality of the debate.[/QUOTE]Huh - did I miss something??? I couldn't make a lot out of it, but decided To Roll Over, and follow hard on the heels with some Laughing Loudly.

[Cloudbringer]

Let's steer back to topic and stay there, thank you.

Holy Warrior:

It is ok to have a strong opinion on an issue, but flaming other members or groups is NOT ok. Namecalling is completely unnecessary. Your comment

Call someone who gives a damn. I couldn't care less what a bunch of Eurotwits think.:sneer:

is out of line. Please think twice before you hit the 'add reply' button in the future.

In general : If you get heated up enough to want to start flinging insults, remember that your browser has an OFF option and you can always back out of a debate. There's no 'shame' in deciding to quit or back out temoporarily before you loose your cool.

[ 01-15-2003, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]

[Timber Loftis]

Donut, thanks for the info. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] I still think the Death Penalty is likely a deterrent, but you certainly give some credibility to the notion it's not.

Quietman - welcome to IW. We're pretty good at around here at seeming hot under the collar without being hot under the collar.

Yorick: I learned quite some time ago that all universal maxims get tossed out the window in certain situations. I agree killing another human is always wrong - it's a basic assumption you must have in a workable livable society. Man didn't come together to form a society and make rules so his life would be worse than it was in the state of nature.

That said, my only reservation with the death penalty has to do with its rate or error - both in conviction and in sentencing. If we know 100% that someone committed a heinous act and took lives, I'm all for killing them in the most painful fashion possible. I simply feel that allowing them to not suffer the fate the visited upon others is MORE wrong that taking their life. It is an unjust windfall of the worst nature.

And, locking them up for life isn't enough for me I'm afraid. No matter how sh**tty life is, any one of us would likely prefer it to death.

So, in short, you broad-brushed rules strike me as similar to many high ideals: better in theory than in practice.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by HolyWarrior: Originally posted by Yorick: The issue is, the rest of the western world has a huge problem with the punishment. Call someone who gives a damn. I couldn't care less what a bunch of Eurotwits think.:sneer: NO OTHER NATION IN THE WEST KILLS IT'S CITIZENS LIKE AMERICA. Saudi Arabia, China Iraq and America lead the world in numbers of citizens it's government kills. Try living in Saudi Arabia, etc. before comparing our justice system to theirs. BTW, that should be "its". And since no other nation IS America, what's your point? :hmmm: I for one see NO DIFFERENCE between murder and execution. Taking a life, is taking a life. In executing, the state becomes a murderer. Must you be a monster to punish a monster? Can you not see that in repaying evil for evil you become evil? {i]Jayzus, boy, look in the bloody dictionary. There is a BIG difference between murder and execution. Murder is the taking of innocent life. Execution is the elimination of those who murder, m'kay?:sigh:[/i] The issue is not what the criminal gets, but what does society become. Wrongo! The issue IS and ONLY IS what the criminal gets. Criminal gets a swift execution for committing murder. Rest of society gets message. What are you becoming? As part of the nation, you are as guilty as the executioner of taking human life. Of ending a humans existence. Now. What if there's a mistake? Just say that the human you killed is innocent. No guilt at all. The executioner sent a murderer to his just rewards. Let me guess, you oppose war, and want to be a human shield in Baghdad If this is the best you bleeding hearts can do, give up. [img]graemlins/rant.gif[/img]

1.I am not from Europe. Canadians, New Zealanders, South Africans, and Australians are not from Europe.

2.If an INNOCENT person is executed by the state - meaning a gross mistake was made AS HAS OCCURED IN THE PAST - then the state by your definition commits murder.

3.Your logic is wierd. I asked, "What if there's a mistake? Just say that the human killed is innocent" and you replied "The executioner sent a murderer to his just rewards" Did you not read? I said, just say that the person is innocent. JUST SAY THE PERSON DID NOT COMMIT THE MURDER, YET WAS MISTAKENLY CONVICTED AS HAS HAPPENED IN THE PAST. Follow the hypotheticals if you want to contribute a point against it.

If this is the best you bloodlusters can do, give up [img]graemlins/rant.gif[/img]

[ 01-15-2003, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]