Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi ....

[johnny]

Originally posted by Donut: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Has proposed membership in the Eu for Israel [img]smile.gif[/img] How many of the other members will stand beside him?

Members of the EU have to meet certain standards of human rights. Obviously Israel would be precluded because of this. [/QUOTE]Everything is negotiable, if it weren't, then how come the Turks are in ?

[Donut]

Originally posted by johnny: quote: Originally posted by Donut: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Has proposed membership in the Eu for Israel [img]smile.gif[/img] How many of the other members will stand beside him?

Members of the EU have to meet certain standards of human rights. Obviously Israel would be precluded because of this. [/QUOTE]Everything is negotiable, if it weren't, then how come the Turks are in ? [/QUOTE]They aren't!! Despite pressure from the US. They have abolished the death penalty though and talks will begin next year on their admission.

And it isn't negotiable - it's the most important criteria.

[johnny]

Oh.. you're right. I got things mixed up. They're NATO partners right ?

[B_part]

This is a long post. Sorry.

Originally posted by Ramon de Ramon y Ramon: Yes indeed, and he shamelessly abuses his party's parliamentary majority and the fact that his "unique" position of controlling almost the entire Italian media (he can exert a great degree of control over the state-controlled media because he is the chief of government and over the private media because he owns most of it)

Most of what you said is true. But there is something worth noting:
1)Mr. B. owns three channels. One of them is blatantly and ridiculously backing him - so much that it is matter of jokes. Everybody knows what to expect from rete 4 (channel 4), so that's really no threat to free opinion. The second channel (italia 1) doesn't really talk about politics that much, in fact 3/4 of their news are about gossip. They are mildly pro Berlusconi when it comes to news, but they host comedians which really don't spare him the least bit. The third channel (canale 5 - channel 5), the serious and most watched one, is usually against Berlusconi, criticizing him more often than not. The first and second public channels are equally as impartial, while the third is really blatantly against Berlusconi - RAI 3 has always been a leftish (not to say outright communist) channel, so much that it had been dubbed Tele-Kabul, like the notorious sovietic propaganda channel back in Afghanistan.

So in my opinion television and in general media situation is in Italy quite balanced, if not slightly against Berlusconi.

This doesn't cancel the interest conflict of Mr Berlusconi, but in many ways reduces its weight on the freedom in Italy.

to have the Italian parliament pass one tailor-made legislation after another the only purpose of which very obviously is to prevent or at least obstruct the criminal investigation of those allegiations by the Italian justice system. And he doesn't even shy away from openly abusing his position as prime minister to try to hinder legal proceedings under way against him in other European countries. He is the most despicable and callous "democratic" politician I know and the greatest threat to the rule of law and democracy to arise in any democratic European country in decades.

Mostly true. I do not approve his (mis)conduct, and wish he could quit this bullshit which is embarrassing Italy as a country on the whole. There are a couple of things to note, however: Until 1991 there used to be in Italy (it was in the Constitution) a law which didn't allow prosecuting the members of the parliament unless the parliament itself had given the authorization with a quite strict set of rules. This law was canceled after the notorious bribe scandal in 1991, under pressure from the angered crowds. It has never been restored. This means the police can bug the President's private apartaments without warning anybody but a regional chief... that is something quite wrong, it is unprecedented in any democracy, and something must be done about it.

Second: I don't know whether mr. Berlusconi is guilty or not, and I cannot tell. There is one thing worth noting, however: since 1991 many politicians and businessmen have been trialed for corruption - and that is not surprising, corruption had risen in the italian system to a commonly accepted - and widely known - rule. Every party has had its share. However no one from the parties which are now forming the opposition (mostly comprised of "D.S. = leftish democratics", formerly known as "PCI = Italian Communist Party") to mr. Berlusconi and his coalition has ever been touched by the scandal - a selectivity which could be justified by a Realpolitik thought - after all some parts of the system HAD to be kept out of the scandal, otherwise the so called second republic would never have had a starting point - but a selectivity which is really suspect. The inquiries about illegal financing from the Sovietic union to the PCI, the inquiry about the so called red cooperatives and others which saw PCI members as defendants where hastily closed without even seeing a trial.

The first true trial against Berlusconi was opened just as he was elected, and you might remember that the notice of that was given to the defendant Berlusconi and leaked to the press exactly the day of the G8 meeting here in Italy. A coincidence? I strongly doubt it, they could have waited a couple of days and avoided international embarassment to Italy. The purpose of that gesture is quite obvious.

Cesare Previti, a key member of the party founded by Berlusconi, and personal friend of him, has recently been found guilty of corruption in another trial. He has been sentenced to 11 years of prison and to pay 896 million €. IIRC the most severe sentences of corruption here in italy have never been over 7 years, mostly below 5, with fines never over 1 million €. Just for a comparison, a girl who recently cold bloodedly slaughtered her mother and her 11 year old brother, was sentenced to 16 years of prison. When asked the reason of this absurd sentence (that of previti, I mean), the judges answered they wanted "to set an example". Now, that sounds like a political statement to me, given by people who have been crying that they are absolutely impartial and care nothing about the politics. Oh, by the way, they are the same of the closed trials I mentioned above...

On the other side Berlusconi has tried in every conceivable way to hinder the trials by means of new laws. Those laws are really general, and both of them were really needed to fill a gap in our law system which had been opened in previous years. One of them states that in case of supects of persecution of the judges against the defendant, the trial can be moved to another city. The second, which has not been approved yet, aims to reestabilish the guarantees for the parliament which I mentioned above. However just these laws may be, there is no doubt that they have been made ad hoc for Berlusconi.

IMO he is especially dangerous, because he does not try to abolish the democratic system but he is turning it into a farce devoid of its true meaning.

The problem is, democracy in Italy is a farce already: it's a war: on one side the opposition, which has been utterly defeated in the last elections and is trying to overthrow the verdict of the people by means of the crowds, wich have been marching against Berlusconi since the second day after his election - but strangely have been silent in the 5 previous years when Berlusconi was the opposition. Their only strategy is insulting Berlusconi.
On the other side, Berlusconi is trying to laundry his things by means of the parliament and ad hoc laws. And he is saying stupid things like that of Israel - the man is a born gaffeur.

The result is that Italy is in desperate need of structural reforms, that of the judiciary system, that of the job laws, that of the retirement laws, federalism and many others, but those reforms will never be made, because the politicians are simply fighting each other like rival gangs. And things won't change if the next elections put the opposition in the government place: they will need to ally with the leftmost parties, which will hinder any sensible reform with their communist ideology. Oh, and by the way, that would be a real danger to democracy, since they will be seeking revenge on Berlusconi, and will shut his televisions down. That would leave only public television, which has a notorious way of backing up the leftish parties. The result will be a complete silencing of any voice contrary to them. At least Berlusconi will stop his personal war once he has fixed his personal problems. Perhaps it's a price you have to pay to get things working again.

As to his proposal to include Israel into the Eu: for me that is debatable - but only after a peaceful resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been achieved and not before and without Turkey's membership.

Turkey is in europe, and could be one day, when it has resolved her human rights issues, become part of the EU. But Israel is in Europe like the USA is in Asia, so I don't see why it should be part of the EU.

[Ramon de Ramon y Ramon]

Thank you, B_part, that was an extremely interesting post, especially as it provided an internal Italian perspective. [img]smile.gif[/img]