Would The World Be Better Off Without Nukes? - Page 5

Night Stalker · 01-09-2003, 06:05 PM

"Nukes" are a red herring. What are they really? They are simply explosive devices that have enormous destructive yield (if you ignore for the moment the lasting damage that ionizing radiation does to biological and environmental systems). There are "conventional" weapons that are every bit as destructive as "nukes". The GBU-50 "Daisycutter" is more devistating than "tactical" nukes and nulclear artillery. There are non-explosive weapons that have greater biological and environmental impact than "nukes" (biological, chemical, informational, electo-magnetic). Finally, nature itself has greater impact on itself than "nukes".

Again, speculating on what Hitler may or may not have done is pointless. One thing is for sure. Since the effects of ionizing radiation were not known in WWII, and there were weapons much more destructive than the available nukes, Hitler did not fear nuclear retaliation. Also for certain, had he had "the bomb", it would have been on a London bound V2. (There are documented plans for this - no I can't remember the source).

As for nuclear powers not striking one another .... what do you think the Cold War was? The Soviet Union and America were constantly parrying with one another - through the use of proxies. Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, Berlin, the Iran-Iraqi War, the Mujaheen, and countless incidents that you never heard of. If The West was not at war with the Soviet Bloc, how is it that we know extensively how each others weapons systems rate in combat effectiveness comparitively? And quite very nearly, "nukes" were almost used in '62(?).

MAD is a deterent ONLY. It is not a solution. Watch the movie The Sum of All Fears. It gives a good representation of the insanity of brinkmanship. Fear does not stop war. It only postpones it a little while. Fear leads to anger, resentment, and inspires revenge. Don't think so? Think of the "picked on" kids in high school that become successful in adult life to "show up those loosers" from school, and then return to the reunion to proove it. The problem with MAD and brinkmanship is who blinks, and when. Pride gets in the way of that decision, and "procedure" forbids you from doing so - the other side has to. Fear is not the answer to peace.

Bear in mind, I am one of the "Dogs of War". While I am happy and content to lie quietly on the sunny porch, and only move from it begrudgenly, I will bring forth all my fury and devistation when unleashed. For I am nothing more or less than than the "nukes". The problem is the reasons for the "nukes" to have been invented in the first place, or guns, or swords, or knives, or even rocks.

Take away the reasons for these things to be wielded in anger first, then we can lay aside the tools, or put them to non-destrucive use.

[ 01-09-2003, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: Night Stalker ]

HolyWarrior · 01-09-2003, 06:26 PM

Well DUH the world would be better off if there weren't nuclear weapons

But we DO have them and we can't uninvent them.

Rikard_OHF · 01-10-2003, 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Krustin:

quote:
Originally posted by slicer15:
When you think about it, everything that is created to do good, can be used for bad, or destruction. I am talking about inventions that were initially designed to help people but can also be used to kill people. I can't think of any examples at the moment.

How 'bout hunting knives? Used for skinning game, and so on. Many times these have been used in murders and barroom brawls.[/QUOTE]Dynamite by mister Nobel himself
Invited to blow up rocks to build tunnels and mines
Used also for blowing up people...

Rikard_OHF · 01-10-2003, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HolyWarrior:
Well DUH the world would be better off if there weren't nuclear weapons
But we DO have them and we can't uninvent them.

would it be?
Do you think the japanese would have given up without them?
considering their strong sence of honor i wouldnt be suprised if they faught themselfs to death

Dont get me wrong
I'm a total pacifist
but your statement is a bit naive and not really well argumented

[ 01-10-2003, 02:53 AM: Message edited by: Rikard_OHF ]

01-09-2003, 06:05 PM	#41
Night Stalker Lord Ao Join Date: June 24, 2002 Location: Nevernever Land Age: 50 Posts: 2,002	"Nukes" are a red herring. What are they really? They are simply explosive devices that have enormous destructive yield (if you ignore for the moment the lasting damage that ionizing radiation does to biological and environmental systems). There are "conventional" weapons that are every bit as destructive as "nukes". The GBU-50 "Daisycutter" is more devistating than "tactical" nukes and nulclear artillery. There are non-explosive weapons that have greater biological and environmental impact than "nukes" (biological, chemical, informational, electo-magnetic). Finally, nature itself has greater impact on itself than "nukes". Again, speculating on what Hitler may or may not have done is pointless. One thing is for sure. Since the effects of ionizing radiation were not known in WWII, and there were weapons much more destructive than the available nukes, Hitler did not fear nuclear retaliation. Also for certain, had he had "the bomb", it would have been on a London bound V2. (There are documented plans for this - no I can't remember the source). As for nuclear powers not striking one another .... what do you think the Cold War was? The Soviet Union and America were constantly parrying with one another - through the use of proxies. Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, Berlin, the Iran-Iraqi War, the Mujaheen, and countless incidents that you never heard of. If The West was not at war with the Soviet Bloc, how is it that we know extensively how each others weapons systems rate in combat effectiveness comparitively? And quite very nearly, "nukes" were almost used in '62(?). MAD is a deterent ONLY. It is not a solution. Watch the movie The Sum of All Fears. It gives a good representation of the insanity of brinkmanship. Fear does not stop war. It only postpones it a little while. Fear leads to anger, resentment, and inspires revenge. Don't think so? Think of the "picked on" kids in high school that become successful in adult life to "show up those loosers" from school, and then return to the reunion to proove it. The problem with MAD and brinkmanship is who blinks, and when. Pride gets in the way of that decision, and "procedure" forbids you from doing so - the other side has to. Fear is not the answer to peace. Bear in mind, I am one of the "Dogs of War". While I am happy and content to lie quietly on the sunny porch, and only move from it begrudgenly, I will bring forth all my fury and devistation when unleashed. For I am nothing more or less than than the "nukes". The problem is the reasons for the "nukes" to have been invented in the first place, or guns, or swords, or knives, or even rocks. Take away the reasons for these things to be wielded in anger first, then we can lay aside the tools, or put them to non-destrucive use. [ 01-09-2003, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: Night Stalker ] __________________ [url]\"http://www.duryea.org/pinky/gurkin.wav\" target=\"_blank\">AYPWIP?</a> .... <img border=\"0\" alt=\"[1ponder]\" title=\"\" src=\"graemlins/1ponder.gif\" /> <br />\"I think so Brain, but isn\'t a cucumber that small called a gherkin?\"<br /><br />Shut UP! Pinky!

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01-09-2003, 06:26 PM	#42
HolyWarrior User Suspended for 2 weeks by Ziroc [Dec30] Join Date: July 7, 2002 Location: IL Age: 58 Posts: 472	Well DUH the world would be better off if there weren't nuclear weapons But we DO have them and we can't uninvent them.

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