Was HOF really necessary?

[Dturner]

I just started HOF and have played it up through the end of the prologue, that is to the last battle at Targos. I found myself thinking HOF wasn't really necessary, that it was added instead of putting in the effort to make the game longer or more detailed, like BG2. The numbers of monsters in HOF are more like I was expecting in the normal version. After all, they were trying to overrun Targos, not play with it. I thought it was odd that there were fewer than a dozen goblins outside in the docks and probably not more than 50 altogether, and the final battle in Targos was also more on the scale I would have expected. I think what they did was to up the hit points and damage the monsters did to give high level characters the challenge that should have been there from the start. Granted, new characters might have had to be created at 3rd level or so to survive, but that would be no problem, especially if the game were more on the scale of BG2.

I remember the old Pool of Radiance game from the late 80's that had low level characters facing hordes of monsters. By level 3 or 4, characters were taking on an island where there must have been at least 60 orcs. They were only 8 hp variety, but it was a tough fight, and the spellcasters were a real pain since you didn't have dispell magic at that level. Other battles included wave after wave of kobolds and pirates, in each case totalling well in excess of 100 enemies, including higher level fighters, spellcasters and tough monsters like trolls, which were really a pain in that game. So, again, I think HOF is what it should have been from the start: lots of monsters of the regular HP and damage variety.

[Magness]

I agree with you concerning HOF. I find HOF really "unrealistic" (within the entire concept of reality in a fantasy environment ). The idea of goblins having 150 to 200 HP seems really silly. I played HOF once thru the prologue and to nearly the end of chapter 1. I simply got tired of it being little more than summon undead and let them do all the fighting. I don't mind using summoned monsters, but having to do it every time got incredibly boring.

I think that I like your different vision of HOF as having much larger NUMBERS of enemies, instead of more HP. I loved that battle in chapter 5 (?) (avoiding using the name of the location intentionally so as not to spoil ) where you fight a defensive battle against the attacking hordes! The first time I fought that battle, I was thinking that they were gonna wear me down. Heck, now I wish that there were twice as many waves of enemies. Man-o-man, that was a fun battle. I could almost hear my tanks yelling "You want some of this! YOU WANT SOME OF THIS!!!" while my archers were firing salvo after salvo after salvo into the oncoming monsters! GOD, I loved that battle! The only gripe that I had with that battle was that a certain friendly NPC kept wading into the heart of the enemy, preventing me from casting fireballs, etc. at them before they strick my tank-wall. Oh well, I guess that you can't have everything.

[Imrahil]

I'm in agreement here - HoF (& HoW in IWDI) aren't that great. I'd rather be given the option to double (triple, quadruple, whatever...) the number of enemies rather than boost them all by x100 toughness. HoF is just plain boring to me. It's a methodical, grind-'em-out, same-old-same-old battle rather than a tactical one. In regular mode, you need different tactics for different enemies, but in HoF, you need [insert same tactics for every battle] plus mildly different tactics, given that you'll have [same tactics for every battle] (also trying not to spoil too much).

The mere fact that you *have* to have [same tactics for every battle] makes it exceedingly dull to me. Give me the Gnoll Strongold from BGI, The Oasis or Yaga-Shura from ToB, the entrance to Upper Dorn's Barracks from IWDI (i.e. many, many enemies, everywhere) & I'm much happier than if you make every goblin in the world into Super-Goblin.

- Imrahil

edit: apparently triangular brackets make your text disappear, but rectangular ones stay [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 01-10-2003, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: Imrahil ]

[Dturner]

I have been thinking more and more about the old games and have remembered more about some of the big battles. There were at least five big brawls. The mostly likely first was the island with the orcs, at least 50 with achers and spellcasters. Others were the Pirate base, which was two or three waves straight from the monster manual: Every 10 guys was a level 2 or 3 fighter, every 30 or so, a 4th lvl fighter and a spell caster, and each wave filled a third of the screen, so at least 40 bad guys. The pirate leader and his henchmen were murderous against level 5 (average) characters. Pirate leader was worth it though, about a level 8 guy with + 3 platemail and a high + sword, his henchmen were also all over level 5.

The merchant caravan was another. Three waves of kobolds with archers. Only the 4 hp variety, but a fireball would take out less than a quarter of them in each wave.

There is also a temple fight with orcs and hobgoblins. There are several priests in this one which really made it interesting do to lack of dispell magic at the time. Again many enemies, in the same divisions as from the monster manuals.

The last that I remember, though there was other sizable brawls, were the kobold caves. Four waves here, one outside, then three with the Kobold king. It was problably my favorite: loads of kobolds in each wave and each wave got tougher. The first was just kobolds, but by the last there were trolls, wild boar and so on, and for characters about lvls 5 to 6, it is a tough fight.

Maybe they will listen and make the enemy more numerous rather than just tougher. I have stopped playing HOF, those 100hp goblins are more than I can take.

[arion windrider]

to be honest, i got tired of iwd2... argh... hehheh... so i bought nwn.. dang that game is so much better ... i really should finish iwd2..im up to the severed hand part...

[Kakero]

I don't mind monsters having hundreds of hp in HOF mode but what I don't like about HOF mode are those indestructable kegs. not to mention those annoying bridge support too.

[banzai]

Originally posted by Dturner: I found myself thinking HOF wasn't really necessary, that it was added instead of putting in the effort to make the game longer or more detailed, like BG2.

My 2 cents - making the enemies just stronger (more HP / damage) prolongs the battles. For my tastes this leads to more boring battles because there´s no opportunity for new tactics etc.
Resources put into developing this mode should be used for a better *game design*.

[Zoltan]

pirates orcs in island you mention the old pool of radiance right? it was only 2 HD. god I miss those days where I can find it?

[9_1_6]

Originally posted by arion windrider: to be honest, i got tired of iwd2... argh... hehheh... so i bought nwn.. dang that game is so much better ... i really should finish iwd2..im up to the severed hand part...

You'll be bored of that too, just like me [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Gildor]

Something that irritates me is, ...

I know at least at SP some people always tell me how a Paladin is useless in HofF because Armor Class doesn't mean anything.

On the other hand, what I hear about HofF is things like depending solely on summoned creatures, or depending solely on greater damage range and maximized hit points. Where's the pride and bragging rights in that?

Of course, they also say that strategy and not numbers-crunching always wins in HofF. If the examples I gave constitutes 'strategy', that's a sorry use of the word.