Religion Thread IV

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Well, our last thread certainly took a strange turn at the end.

Ziroc - Thanks for stepping in and terminating the problem. This type of thread is "dicey" enough without having a Dark Troll lurking about.

Sir Michael - You want me to "lighten up" on Alexander? I'm sure you know by now that I did. I read his Post very late last night and mistakenly confused him with Dramnek (who had made several offensive remarks about Christians in general - more on that in a moment). As soon as I realized my error, I admitted my mistake and apologized publicly. However, the specific Post I referred to DOES violate the TOS. I've seen several members warned for making similar statements about religious beliefs. A thread such as this requires ALL participants to walk a very fine line.

Dramnek - Several of your Posts HAVE contained offensive generalizations of Christianity. I was going to Cut-n-Paste some of them here as evidence, but then I would be the one doing the "flame-baiting". I trust you know which posts I mean, so there is no reason to reprint them here. You do have every right to voice your beliefs and opinions here, but you are also required to be respectful in those Posts. To your credit, the generalizations (and overall offensiveness) have become much LESS frequent as you Posted more often.

Yorick - I can always count on you to offer some intelligent and insightful comments regarding Christianity. But, if I could offer some constructive criticism (I know - I hate that concept too, sorry), you do tend to get "baited" pretty easily. I respect your passion and beliefs, but sometimes you come on a bit too strong in your Replies. It's not fair for me to ask Dramnek to tone down without making the same suggestion to you.

No offense is meant to either of you and I hope none is taken.

Alexander - I haven't seen a Reply from you regarding my apology in the previous thread. So in case you didn't see, I will apologize again for my comments. I didn't get my facts straight before making my remarks. I'll be more careful from now on.

That should get me caught up on most of the comments I wanted to make in the other thread.

So let's start on yet another "fresh page".

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Dramnek,

In our previous thread, you asked why I put the word "justify" in quotation marks when I stated that some Christians use the Bible to "justify" their own prejudices.

Yorick already addressed that issue, but I want to give my own explanation.

The fact is that these Christians are NOT exhibiting the love and tolerance of their fellow man that God and Jesus REQUIRE of their followers.

The verse you quoted was from the Old Testament...and you're right....God's Law does seem very harsh sometimes. But God is consistent throughout the Bible when dealing with sin.

The wages of sin are death; Death is required by God as an atonement for sin. It always has been and always will be. HOWEVER, H does NOT require the death of the sinner himself (or herself). In the OT, animals were sacrificed to atone for sins committed.

Then Jesus Christ came down to mankind. As God in the Flesh, Jesus was the only human to EVER live a life completely free of sin. But He died the death of a sinner. WHY? So that HE could pay the price required by God for ALL of our sins...every single one of us. God DOES require a blood atonement for sin, and Jesus accepted the sins of all the world on His head, so that His Holy Blood would forever pay to price required by His Father for atonement.

This fulfilled the law of the Old Testament. There is NO sacrifice that could ever be offered by man that would come anywhere close to the sacrifice Jesus made...so God accepted His death as an atonement for the sins of every single person who was living then, has lived since then, or will live in the future.

Christians who exhibit other values are not living up to the example Jesus set and expects us to follow.

The point is that all of the laws of the Old Testament have been "amended" (as Yorick pointed out) and are no longer applicable.

[Alexander]

I read you the first time - unfortunately the thread was closed before I could reply. Apology accepted.

If only everyone who misquoted me would be so courteous, I wouldn't feel so bad about it. Thank you for being a gentleman about this whole ordeal.

[the sauceman]

Well said Cerek, you make many valid points in your argument for Jesus.
and Alexander, it is nice to see that *most* people on this forum have common decency and are nice people...
I must agree with Cerek on the "dark" ending...LOL [img]smile.gif[/img]
also cerek, what is your thoughts on God's giving up Jesus for us...
c u later...

[johnny]

Originally posted by Alexander: I read you the first time - unfortunately the thread was closed before I could reply. Apology accepted. If only everyone who misquoted me would be so courteous, I wouldn't feel so bad about it. Thank you for being a gentleman about this whole ordeal.

you're allright alexander, don't be sad. Discussions about religion are just bound to end up a bit messy, it's human nature

[Sigmar]

Originally posted by johnny: quote: Originally posted by Alexander: I read you the first time - unfortunately the thread was closed before I could reply. Apology accepted. If only everyone who misquoted me would be so courteous, I wouldn't feel so bad about it. Thank you for being a gentleman about this whole ordeal.

you're allright alexander, don't be sad. Discussions about religion are just bound to end up a bit messy, it's human nature[/QUOTE]It's true, everyone has conflicting opinions. We're all human, now let's start debating!

[Krishach]

Didn't I tell you I didn't like where the thread was going in the first one?

What I don't understand is how can you definitely tell me that there is a God when someone else believes in say, Allah for example. Are they both the same God? Does his god not exist because he is a totally different religion from yours? Do both exist? Do neither exist? I'm curious about peoples thoughts on this.

[Morgan_Corbesant]

personally, i believe that once i die, the only place i go is six feet under, or in an urn. im an athiest, so i dont know if i should even be in here, but the title caught my eye. i have studied religion in the past, and i just wanted to see everyones views and opinions.

[johnny]

Originally posted by Sigmar: quote: Originally posted by johnny: quote: Originally posted by Alexander: I read you the first time - unfortunately the thread was closed before I could reply. Apology accepted. If only everyone who misquoted me would be so courteous, I wouldn't feel so bad about it. Thank you for being a gentleman about this whole ordeal.

you're allright alexander, don't be sad. Discussions about religion are just bound to end up a bit messy, it's human nature[/QUOTE]It's true, everyone has conflicting opinions. We're all human, now let's start debating![/QUOTE]well i've posted something like this before and it hasn't changed since then, i'm a non believer, sorry about that. I'm not falling for any religion crap. If i have to believe in something, i would say i believe in myself

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Krishach: Didn't I tell you I didn't like where the thread was going in the first one? What I don't understand is how can you definitely tell me that there is a God when someone else believes in say, Allah for example. Are they both the same God? Does his god not exist because he is a totally different religion from yours? Do both exist? Do neither exist? I'm curious about peoples thoughts on this.

The God of Christianity, Judaism and Islam is the same God. The pathways are different.

The differences all centre around belief in who Jesus is/was, not who the creator God is.

To Christians Jesus is God. God on this earth who died to enable relationship with God, and life, eternal life with him hereafter.

Islam acknowledges Jesus, but not as God or Gods son, but as one of their greatest prophets.

Jews are still waiting for their prophecied messiah, and thus don't believe Jesus was who he said he was.

However, there are many "Messianic Jews" who believe Jesus IS the messiah, and so whom worship as Christians, sharing their beliefs. There are three or four in our Church in NYC, and I knew a couple in Australia.

But essentially we all share the belief in the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

Pantheists do not share this concept though, and this was discussed in the last thread.

[ 04-28-2002, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]