Aid Money - to get things into perspective

[Ronn_Bman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:
The reason why non Americans are judging you is because we've heard you all saying over and over again, 'why is this happening to us'?? If America doesn't want to know about cause and effect, then let Americans stop asking questions that they obviously are not interested in knowing the answers to.

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My question is who has the moral authority to judge us? What nation or person is so pure that they can say those things? "You don't give enough, and you don't do enough." Who does?

I don't think the question, "why this is happening to US" has been asked in a long time on this board because the answer was screamed loud and clear, but that question, asked weeks ago, is continually answered on nearly every thread. You want to talk about "chest thumping"?

[Ronn_Bman]

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Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:


Well excuse me whilst I burst into tears here. The richest country in the world has citizens in need - poor education poor medical treatment and crap food?

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See Cheeta, we can't even complain without having it shoved down our throats? You don't like our internal policies, you don't like our external policies, you don't like the things we say, and you don't like the things we do. Your whole posts complains about America, while the final statement says Blair is trying to lead you down the same road.

You are entitled to you opinions, but we are entitled to our feelings about those opinions.

[Silver Cheetah]

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Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:


But SC, don't you see you're saying exactly what I'm talking about right now. It's not just American's, but "American's perfected the process", "they led the way", "they blah, blah, blah".

If it's so bad, why not focus on those companies who did it after it was obvious how bad it was? Because this isn't about just anyone who does it, it's about the American's who do it because it's their fault. Your post explains that point nicely. The American's get two paragraph's and the rest of the world gets a two line statement ending with, "most of the explotation is done at their (American's) behest."

SC, you may think you see the truth and that it's America at the heart of all of the problems you've discussed in this forum, but isn't that a little too simplistic? Kind of like your argument about good vs evil?

You did do a very nice thing regarding Yorick's anti-British post. [img]smile.gif[/img]

That post was aimed at brits in general, those on this board in particular. It caused quite a bit of upset because it was putting down the anti-war movement opinion and called in to question many things said and put them in a context those who held those views were offended by. I don't see all the arguments on this board as anti American arguments, but the arguments whose main line of defense is "look at you, it's your fault" I am entitled to find offensive.

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Okay. They led the way. Their profits shot up. Come on Ron, you know how Wall Street works! Companies who don't 'follow the leaders' share price tumbles, - they're seen as less good bets in comparison to the hearts of stone and heavy pocketed entrepeuners. It is an American way of doing business, which is spreading to the rest of the world. Most of the multinationals who engage in these disgusting practices are in fact American. (Although the subcontractors who actually are responsible for getting the work done come from all over, mostly third world countries.)

America struts its stuff and wants to be seen as world leader. It's the only remaining superpower. Okay. So why can't the American government impose legislation that holds business more accountable! Bloody Reagon did a lot to change the face of business, like bloody Thatcher. Goodbye manufacturing industries. Goodbye anti-trust laws... and so on..... Because America is so rich, and has such a powerful presence in the global economy, what American multinationals do is not just nothing! And the American government colludes in helping it achieve it's aims of more and more and more profit, because it perceives that as being good for the American economy. However, those actions have consequences all over the world, very often for the worse. Other companies have to follow suit to be able to compete, or go to the wall. And so bad working practices reintroduced by American companies spread and spread and spread, just because of America's position in the economic sphere. Do you understand what I'm trying to say here??

I'm focusing on America for that reason, and also for the obvious reason that this is a forum about the 'war' with Afghanistan, which America is prosecuting, and it is American's, as I've already said, who are asking why the world sees them in such a negative light. Of course I'm focusing on America in my replies! To do anything else would be absurd.

Last point - as you know very well, Ron-B, I have no ruth whatsoever for Britain's colonial past, which I think had the effect of destabalising the majority of the third world, and which can never be condoned or excused. And I don't give a stuff who criticises Britain for that, because it needs to be said, the more often the better. I do not identify with my country to the extent that I am offended when people have a go at it. Why should I? I'm a human being and a global citizen.

[Cloudbringer]

quote:

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Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:


Well excuse me whilst I burst into tears here. The richest country in the world has citizens in need - poor education poor medical treatment and crap food?

There's plenty of money around, much of it in the pockets of people like Bill Gates, and the many many others who make unfeasibly large amounts of money whilst others are starving. Your country doesn't believe in state provided services, and proper safety nets for those in need. What you describe is the consequence of that.

When taxes continue to be lowered whilst people are in dire need, and essential services are provided by private contractors - that's what you get. It's all about priorities. Under Tony Blair, Britain continues down the road that the US has already taken. Blair is finishing what Thatcher started, the privitisation of Britain.

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You know, I keep getting this nagging feeling that it all boils down to you not liking the fact that some people DO have more than others... and sorry, SC, we are not utopia and we are not model Communists.

I am in no position to tell Mr. Gates or any other million/billionaire that he or she must solve the world's problems with their money. Sure, I'd LOVE it if we could do that, but it's not feasible and sitting around BLAMING A WHOLE COUNTRY for the problem is unreasonable.

And Hiram's point that the US does have poverty zones is still valid and those people STILL go without and suffer so your apparent "poor pitiful you" attitude is uncalled for in my opinion.

There are some pretty wealthy Arabs and Arab states out there but how many of THEM are offering to fix up Afghanistan? The USA is pledging support and aid. Seems simple to me, we ARE trying to help and whatever the reason, I'd still say those who are helping aren't deserving of such routine vilification.

Cloudy

[Silver Cheetah]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:


See Cheeta, we can't even complain without having it shoved down our throats? You don't like our internal policies, you don't like our external policies, you don't like the things we say, and you don't like the things we do. Your whole posts complains about America, while the final statement says Blair is trying to lead you down the same road.

You are entitled to you opinions, but we are entitled to our feelings about those opinions.

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Yes of course you're entitled to your feelings about my opinions! And I hope you will go on expressing them with courtesy, forcefully, clearly and in all the other ways you express yourself, Ron-B. I very much value both your opinions, and the way you state them.

Ron, I don't believe that privatised services are the way to go if our aims are a good quality of life for our citizens. The States is the richest country on earth, as I said. If there is dreadful poverty and poor services in terms of education and health, doesn't that mean there is something wrong somewhere?

The gap between the very rich and the very poor is widening all over the globe. Doesn't that mean that our current models are flawed?

Yes, Blair is attempting to lead us down the same road that the US has taken. He's just desperate to cement the 'special relationship', which before 11 Sept, was more wishful thinking than anything else, I believe. Both Blair and Thatcher seem to worship the US way of doing things.

If it's any consolation, I totally despise Tony Blair's domestic policies. Should I slag off something British every time I say something negative about America? Quite happy to do so, if that'll make you feel less picked on... [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Ronn_Bman]

I don't feel picked on [img]graemlins/crying.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

I do see some of your points Cheeta, and I think many American faults have been pointed out, but I don't always think they're relevant to some posts. Kind of like your point about saying the same thing over and over again. The fact that these points have completely over-shadowed the events of September 11th can be annoying. Many of these things may have led to the feelings that caused this attack on America, but what do we do about it now? Do we sit back and say "well we deserved it" or do we (to quote you again )"do the shit kickin' thang". I personally prefer the latter [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Silver Cheetah]

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Originally posted by Hiram Sedai:


Please don't cry, ma'am. I wouldn't be able to live with myself knowing that I caused you any grief. I do thank you for deeming it necessary to reply to my post. I also thank you for caring enough to show some empathy with my opinion. Please know that we don't have "crap food". I believe it might be your country that is infamous for that title.

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Oh, do give over with the sarcasm, Mike!

Look, I like you all, and I'm not picking on you personally. If you don't want me to type what I think, then just tell me so straight out, and I'm out of here.

Your opinion is your opinion. How on earth am I supposed to 'empathise' with an opinion? If you tell me something sad that has happened to you, then I can empathise with that, of course. I am sorry that people in America live poorly. I am sorry that people in Britain live poorly also. There are many tragic people in my town, and in London, where I used to live. I deplore the political policies and actions that have led to more and more people living on the streets, rather than in safe homes. That's what all my anger is about Hiram, don't you see? I'm a political person. I don't just see a bad situation and go' oh, that's bad'. I try to work out 'why' the situation is as it is. Cause and effect is important to me. For example, the numbers of homeless people in Britain went up hugely under Thatcher when she came up with the idea of 'care in the community' for certain categories of mentally ill patients, who had previously been in institutions (because it would save the government huge amounts of money, - transferring the burden).

Only the community didn't care, and so many people who were the least fitted to live on the streets, found themselves doing just that. Cause and effect. Nothing happens just out of the blue. There are reasons for all things. I am interested in what those reasons are.


PS. It was you who mentioned inadequate food for the poorer sections of society. What was it you meant, I've obviously misunderstood. And yes, British food is pretty crap, generally speaking. Except at my house, (I am v. good cook!) although non vegans probably wouldn't be too impressed ... [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Ronn_Bman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:
And yes, British food is pretty crap, generally speaking. Except at my house, (I am v. good cook!) although non vegans probably wouldn't be too impressed ... [img]smile.gif[/img]

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[img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img]

I'm not a vegan, but I made an awesome Zucchini lasagna over the weekend. Two actually. I'm on a diet, so veggies are "cheaper" than meat. I've cut down drastically on the amount of meat I eat, and increased my vegetables considerably.

69lbs in 30 weeks! Woo-Hoo! I'm about 6'1 and closing in on 220lbs. I look just like Brad Pitt when I take my shirt off (except for the hairy beer belly [img]smile.gif[/img] )

[Neb]

Cheetah, I usually agree with most of your opinions and find your posts to be calm and backed by logical fact, but in this thread you seem to be getting a bit hostile, look:

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Originally posted by Hiram Sedai:
Wow!! That was nasty. I'm back to lurking. Take it easy folks.

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This isn't a response one would expect to one of your normal posts! Calm down a bit, relax....

[Silver Cheetah]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:
I don't feel picked on [img]graemlins/crying.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

I do see some of your points Cheeta, and I think many American faults have been pointed out, but I don't always think they're relevant to some posts. Kind of like your point about saying the same thing over and over again. The fact that these points have completely over-shadowed the events of September 11th can be annoying. Many of these things may have led to the feelings that caused this attack on America, but what do we do about it now? Do we sit back and say "well we deserved it" or do we (to quote you again )"do the shit kickin' thang". I personally prefer the latter [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Of course take steps against terrorism! I've never said not... There were steps that could have been taken previously... but I won't go into the anti-terrorism resolution that the whole world voted for except for America and Israel yet AGAIN, because I've already posted on this....

I have never said 'America deserved it', by the way! That ISNT the point of looking at cause and effect!! More to look at how things have been done in the past, accept that they could, with hindsight, have been done differently and perhaps more sensitively, and, again with the benefit of hindsight, use the insights gained from looking at what happened in the past to avoid making the same mistakes in the present and future.

Of course, mistakes will always be made - that's how human beings learn, isn't it? But the point is to learn by our mistakes, and how can we do that if we refuse to acknowledge that there were any? (Not saying this is your stance, by the way. I know that it isn't. But it does represent the views of many folks that I've debated with.)