Aid Money - to get things into perspective

[Cloudbringer]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:


Barry the point made was that the US for the past many years has supplied Afghanistan the most humanitarian aid. Maybe not the most aid to all the poor nations of the world, but prior to September 11th in Afghanistan it was the US.

It's not a double standard to state what is true, but what has happened since this was said is that well maybe there, but look here, here, and here. People looking for things to be imperfect will find them. What is a double standard is to only recognize the bad, while ignoring the good.

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THANK YOU!!! I really do appreciate your clarity of thought and ability to REMEMBER the point.. LOL I tend to muddle about in the muck sometimes.. thanks again. THIS is a very good point, and one that needed stating here!

Cloudy [img]graemlins/stormy.gif[/img]

PS: HEY MAGNESS!! I used to live next door to you, in Merrimack! Back in my younger days.. did HS there. Dad used to work in Manchester and I've still got many relatives in the state, most a bit north of you. SMALL world, isn't it?

[Ronn_Bman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Neb:
Hey, I'm not saying that WE are completely innocent, but from your post it sounded a bit like you were saying: "We have never judged anyone, why are you all judging us?"

I've got to agree with some of the others in that the US pays quite a lot less than many other countries compared to it's GNP.

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My post on this subject, as always, is in defense of a remark made. I'm not "casting the first stone". Sorry that last one came off to you as it did, but I think if you'll look back at my previous posts, I'm never shouting from the house tops "America is Great" but, instead, speaking in defense.

Your second statement is the kind I'm usually responding, too, although, admittedly, it was phrased less harshly than most.

--This is how the arguments usually go:

Pro-war, "We were attacked and we are defending ourselves by attacking terrorism."

*At this point the Anti-war argument decends to an anti-American one, "But your actions, in the past have caused this problem. It's your fault. If you'd try to help the poor nations of the world, things wouldn't be this way."

Pro-war, "But we do help the poor nations of the world."

Anti-war, "But you aren't doing enough, so it's still your fault."

It's ridiculous, but if you look through all the threads on this forum you will find this argument over, and over, and over again.

Why do non American's feel the need to judge us? Who is "just" enough to say someone else doesn't do enough? "We may have problems, but you American's are really screwed up and here's why"

[Neb]

No trouncing for you here Hiram, I've read your post and if the US has more need of the money than those it is giving it to, then it should use it itself, I agree completely with your post Hiram, except for one small thing which I feel the need to correct:

"I don’t think that we should feel obligated to provide aid to a country while at war with them."

Afghanistan is NOT being attacked, there is no intention to conquer Afghanistan or wipe it off the face of the Earth, only the Taliban, the Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden are under attack here, the aid is being dropped to those unfortunate ones who are getting caught in the crossfire.

[Silver Cheetah]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:


From the Bible (This is not a religious discussion, but an answer to Nebs question about where the quote came from):

"Judge not, that ye be not judged.

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but
considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye, and then
shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

Matthew: 7:1-5

That quote can go both ways!

The attitude of passing judgement on America is prevalent in these forums, and it's always the answer to anything posted. This forum has become less about the War on Terrorism, and more about what's wrong with America and how America is the problem with the world today.

It's not other nations passing judgement on America or America passing judgement on other nations in here. It's non-American individuals endlessly complaining about America. When Yorick made his "anti-British" post people were offended, should American's feel any less?

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Yorick's anti british post (which I excused at the time, and for which he thanked me, incidently) was directed at Brits posting on the forum, and was pretty personal in nature. No-one is attacking individual Americans on this forum. What we are trying to do - for the umpteenth time! - is question what is happening in Afghanistan, and the root causes of it. Obviously that is going to take us into a lot of different areas. The behaviour of American multinationals who are crazy for profit, which they make at the expense of people's health and living conditions, sometimes lives, in the third world, is a large part of why America is often regarded negatively outside her own front door.

Go find out about Export Processing Zones people, those places across the world where more than 27 million people work in disgusting conditions, often for as long as 20 hours a day to make your branded products, sold by companies who spend millions on brand building and sweet ■■■■ all on production/labour costs. And then you come back and tell me about America the Brave, the Good and the Beautiful.

And no, it's not just American multinationals. But they led the way, and most of the exploitation is done at their behest. Other companies world wide now are taking on the model that companies like Nike and The Gap perfected. It's the only way to compete. What a great world we're building. And most people couldnt care less. Shut your eyes and think of... anything. Just don't think about how your cheap products come to you courtesy of the poverty of the third world.

[Cloudbringer]

Hiram, thanks for your post! You should NEVER feel squeamish about posting your thoughts or ideas. That's ostensibly what the forum is for! I get the feeling you were afraid to post that because you've seen so much criticism of America on the whole aid matter (not to Afghanistan, but to the world as Ronn pointed out), that you were expecting a barrage of criticisms of your position on the matter. Well, I do hope that it isn't the case, because you made a point that is often overlooked. One reason that our govt doesn't do alot more (and it isn't mentioned much by US detractors when complaining that Americans don't 'give enough' to others), is that our politicians DO face a strong "US FIRST" attitude in their constituency. And that stems from the feeling that if we can't help our own citizens out of poverty, illness, disasters etc., then how can we save the world?

I used to be one of those people, but these days I feel we must do our best to help whenever we can and if an entire country (like Afghanistan) is in such dissaray that our aid can do some good, we surely must try. Still, you are right in that we do not do enough (at least effectively) for our own citizens sometimes.

Cloudy

PS, Ronn, do you check your pm's? [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Ronn_Bman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Neb:
Afghanistan is NOT being attacked, there is no intention to conquer Afghanistan or wipe it off the face of the Earth, only the Taliban, the Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden are under attack here, the aid is being dropped to those unfortunate ones who are getting caught in the crossfire.

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Good Post Hiram! Your views are no more biased than anyone here, and basing them on the news availible is what everyone here does. Our news is, I'm sure, more biased that some other nations regarding this war on terrorism, but then again, we were the one's attacked weren't we

I think if this attack had happened in Britian, France, Germany, or anywhere else their news would be the same. I also think if the attack had happened anywhere else, the US would have been applauded for it's actions to aid an ally, instead of being vilified. That is not to say that all non American's have vilified US, or that all American's think America is doing the right thing, but nonetheless, an interesting "what if?"

Neb it's wonderful to hear a non American say that this is a war against the Taliban, Al Queda, and Osama and not Afghanistan. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[Silver Cheetah]

quote:

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Originally posted by Magness:


So ... I see that you are opposed to oil and nuclear. I'm assuming that you are also opposed to coal as well, given its polluting nature.

Question ... what currently existing and in use form of energy do you support? While I definitely support research alternative energy generation (although probably different reasons than you), we have to live in the real world. Until those new generation methods exist, we have to use those methods that do exist.

On the topic of energy generation, I get very tired, very fast of protesters that always seem to be against every existing method of power generation. Opposing everything that exists gives the appearance (whether intended or not) of wanting to turn the clock back two or three hundred years.

Rather than protest against the "bad power", why not get involved in the research for developing "good power"? If the "good power" is good enough, it will defeat the "bad power" in the marketplace, both of ideas and of economics.

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Look. I'm a realist, and a long term thinker. Short term profits are great, but what happens when the goose that lays the golden eggs is dead?

We have a situation where we are burning huge amounts of irreplaceable fossil fuels for energy. A. continuing to do this at present rates will accelerate global warming and we KNOW this. B. There is only so much of these fossil fuels under the earth. We need to use them slower and more carefully, - thinking of the future and the needs of generations to come. Okay? You got that?

Exxon Mobile (to take the worst example out of a bad bunch) spends nothing on research and development into alternative, clean and sustainable methods of generating energy for the human race. It is patently absurd for you to tell me I should be off helping to find new ways of doing this. It is not the business I am in. It is the business the oil companies etc are in.

I do my share by buying 'green' energy generated from sustainable sources (windpower) from a supplier here in the UK. By doing that, I help fund the growth of the sustainable energies industry. Consumers can help by signing up to green energy deals, thus helping momentum.

Exxon made $17.7 billion dollars in PROFIT alone last year. They are the biggest company on the planet. They are doing just fine out of encouraging us all to gas guzzle - big bucks for them, lovely jubbly. To my mind, huge companies like Exxon have a responsibility to the people of this planet, (the people and planet that allow them to make massive profits, incidently) to act in a way that is socially and environmentally responsible. Exxon doesnt agree.

Well, next Saturday Exxon garages all over the UK will be picketed by campaigners persuading motorists to buy elsewhere. We've been doing this for a while now, and Exxon is not pleased, not pleased at all, gollum. Local councils all over Britain have cancelled their contracts with Exxon. It's time that companies learned that some degree of social and environmental responsibility is required.

It is the job of government to put the curbs on. However, as government doesn't seem to give a flying ■■■■, environmental and social activists (who are all consumers themselves don't forget - only game in town, these days - consumers have power, IF THEY CAN BE BOTHERED TO USE IT) have to take up the slack, unpaid and unthanked - in many cases, laughed at and reviled by people who don't think past tonights hot meal and the week's paycheck. I'm into having a future. Don't know about you.

Nuclear is not a sustainable option due to the amount of long lasting dangerously polluting waste it generates, its bad record with regard to polluting and life threatening accidents, plus its excellent potential as a tempting target for terrorists. Arent all your nuclear installations covered with military and protective gear like fleas on a dog right now? So why give the terrorists yet more targets to plow into? Like that is MAJORLY bright.

Lastly, yes, of course we have to use what we've got until we've got replacements. Do you think I'm some kind of idiot? Like let's all down tools and stay in bed until whoever have got the clean energy thing susssed. Activism is about raising awareness about a situation, and getting the people with clout to take action to change things. That's why we do all that whinging you keep banging on about.

It'll be a relatively slow process, replacing what we have now with sustainable means of energy generation, such as wind power, wave power and solar. (Wave and solar have a number of drawbacks currently.)

But we'll never get anywhere until government realises that short termism isn't going to get us very far, and starts embracing alternative technologies with enthusiasm. We need more research and development money and some tax incentives to encourage people to go for alternatives). At present, they cant see any futher than the end of their coal and oil smeared noses. Vested intests? Perish the thought, Mr Bush......

[Silver Cheetah]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:


My post on this subject, as always, is in defense of a remark made. I'm not "casting the first stone". Sorry that last one came off to you as it did, but I think if you'll look back at my previous posts, I'm never shouting from the house tops "America is Great" but, instead, speaking in defense.

Your second statement is the kind I'm usually responding, too, although, admittedly, it was phrased less harshly than most.

--This is how the arguments usually go:

Pro-war, "We were attacked and we are defending ourselves by attacking terrorism."

*At this point the Anti-war argument decends to an anti-American one, "But your actions, in the past have caused this problem. It's your fault. If you'd try to help the poor nations of the world, things wouldn't be this way."

Pro-war, "But we do help the poor nations of the world."

Anti-war, "But you aren't doing enough, so it's still your fault."

It's ridiculous, but if you look through all the threads on this forum you will find this argument over, and over, and over again.

Why do non American's feel the need to judge us? Who is "just" enough to say someone else doesn't do enough? "We may have problems, but you American's are really screwed up and here's why"

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No, you're simplying what we are saying totally. There are many different reasons why America is perceived negatively throughout the third world. One of those reasons, as I've already pointed out, is due to the way American multinationals operate overseas in poverty stricken countries. The word 'exploitation' doesn't even go part way to describing what happens.

The reason why non Americans are judging you is because we've heard you all saying over and over again, 'why is this happening to us'?? If America doesn't want to know about cause and effect, then let Americans stop asking questions that they obviously are not interested in knowing the answers to.

[Ronn_Bman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:


Yorick's anti british post (which I excused at the time, and for which he thanked me, incidently) was directed at Brits posting on the forum, and was pretty personal in nature. No-one is attacking individual Americans on this forum. What we are trying to do - for the umpteenth time! - is question what is happening in Afghanistan, and the root causes of it. Obviously that is going to take us into a lot of different areas. The behaviour of American multinationals who are crazy for profit, which they make at the expense of people's health and living conditions, sometimes lives, in the third world, is a large part of why America is often regarded negatively outside her own front door.

Go find out about Export Processing Zones people, those places across the world where more than 27 million people work in disgusting conditions, often for as long as 20 hours a day to make your branded products, sold by companies who spend millions on brand building and sweet ■■■■ all on production/labour costs. And then you come back and tell me about America the Brave, the Good and the Beautiful.

And no, it's not just American multinationals. But they led the way, and most of the exploitation is done at their behest. Other companies world wide now are taking on the model that companies like Nike and The Gap perfected. It's the only way to compete. What a great world we're building. And most people couldnt care less. Shut your eyes and think of... anything. Just don't think about how your cheap products come to you courtesy of the poverty of the third world.

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But SC, don't you see you're saying exactly what I'm talking about right now. It's not just American's, but "American's perfected the process", "they led the way", "they blah, blah, blah".

If it's so bad, why not focus on those companies who did it after it was obvious how bad it was? Because this isn't about just anyone who does it, it's about the American's who do it because it's their fault. Your post explains that point nicely. The American's get two paragraph's and the rest of the world gets a two line statement ending with, "most of the explotation is done at their (American's) behest."

SC, you may think you see the truth and that it's America at the heart of all of the problems you've discussed in this forum, but isn't that a little too simplistic? Kind of like your argument about good vs evil?

You did do a very nice thing regarding Yorick's anti-British post. [img]smile.gif[/img]

That post was aimed at brits in general, those on this board in particular. It caused quite a bit of upset because it was putting down the anti-war movement opinion and called in to question many things said and put them in a context those who held those views were offended by. I don't see all the arguments on this board as anti American arguments, but the arguments whose main line of defense is "look at you, it's your fault" I am entitled to find offensive.

[Silver Cheetah]

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Originally posted by Hiram Sedai:
Hello folks. I usually post with a “puppy about to be kicked” theme. But, I’ve gathered the courage to share my thoughts once again. I’m posting this time to remind each of you that there are plenty of people who read this forum but don’t post. I’d like to thank you (plural “you” is still you in my part of the United States) for the thought and effort you’ve put forth in these discussions. I’ve been educated and enlightened time and again while reading them. I’m one of many who depend on our local news and national news to do the thinking for me regarding things like the current conflict we have in Afghanistan. So, my opinion is quite biased.

I’ll do my best to try and not “jump” on any one person. I also won’t call a person a “duckie” (humor)

If you read one of my few posts in this forum, you would know that I have extreme difficulty with my nation spending so much money on other countries when our cities are in such disrepair. Our own citizens suffer from want of education, medical treatment, and food. The programs in place are poorly staffed and run. My sense of fairness in impinged upon when I see the United States make an effort to provide aid to another country and then come under criticism for it. )

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Well excuse me whilst I burst into tears here. The richest country in the world has citizens in need - poor education poor medical treatment and crap food?

There's plenty of money around, much of it in the pockets of people like Bill Gates, and the many many others who make unfeasibly large amounts of money whilst others are starving. Your country doesn't believe in state provided services, and proper safety nets for those in need. What you describe is the consequence of that.

When taxes continue to be lowered whilst people are in dire need, and essential services are provided by private contractors - that's what you get. It's all about priorities. Under Tony Blair, Britain continues down the road that the US has already taken. Blair is finishing what Thatcher started, the privitisation of Britain.