The Maryland Sniper problem.

[Timber Loftis]

To follow up on what Sir said and connect the dots, the .223 (5.56 mm NATO) round is the round used by the M-16 and the Colt AR15, as far as I understand it. Though it may well be considered a varmit-hunter among civilians, it sees a lot of battlefield usage among NATO arms, including (and I feel sure I'll get corrected if I'm wrong): the FN-FAL and the very reliable Steyr-AUG, both bullpulp designs.

Have all the shootings been distance shootings? I mean - they've been very accurate for the most part, but haven't some of the shootings been from closer range? Sorry for my ignorance of the facts on this one, folks.

[ 10-08-2002, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Ar-Cunin]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: To follow up on what Sir said and connect the dots, the .223 (5.56 mm NATO) round is the round used by the M-16 and the Colt AR15, as far as I understand it.

correct - we use the M-16 in DK. Only we call it M-95 to confuse the enemy

The Swedish Army has a sniper rifle that uses 7.62

Have all the shootings been distance shootings? I mean - they've been very accurate for the most part, but haven't some of the shootings been from closer range? Sorry for my ignorance of the facts on this one, folks.

All from long range

[ 10-08-2002, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: Ar-Cunin ]

Gaaaaaaaah Im locked out from work again.

Sir T. [img]smile.gif[/img] lookforward to discussing firearms with you when I get the next chance. In all my years using Rifles and Pistols I have never heard anyone promote the .223 as a "sniper" round. the .223 is a far cry from a .308 and that has always been the round of choice by anyone I have been associated with for a sniper round unless you start talking 3/4 mile or so then they start talking about about the big .50. The AR15,M16 are assault type weaposn and are not designed for long range fire. THe M16 round is designed to tumble..definately NOT something you want happening for long range shots.

The M14 was used in a pinch as a sniper weapon but was not Ideal and before that they used the 30-06 (talk about over penetrating)

Maybe for short range urban situations they use the .223 but I would think they would rather use some kind of expanding round out of a .308 so that you had essentially the same balistics.

As for effectiveness we would never use our .223 for a human or deer size target if we had access to a larger round, such as a .243, .284 or .308 (I really like the .284 but they are hard to find. We lost several deer after we hit them and knocked them down with the .223, found one of them later and there was a circular bare spot where the hot load .223 exploded on contact with the skin and blew all the hair and surface level of the hide right off but didnt stop the deer

You can turn an M16 into a distance weapon but out of the box it isn't desigend for that.....I know I guy who had a special built 7mm Mag desigend as a sniper weapon...he uses it to pick white tail deer off at 700 yards [img]smile.gif[/img] It has a 22lb match barrel.

the last thing this "stream of conciousness" wants to say is that there are differences between civilian rounds labeled as .308 and military rounds labeled as 7.62 anyway, here is hoping I can get in from work again tomorrow...I tried the host file trick to no avail...I can get to the IP addy, but not into the forums via the link from that page Im afraid Z might be using some kind of non-standard port for his forums

[ 10-08-2002, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Sir Krustin]

[quote]Originally posted by Morgan_Corbesant:

Originally posted by Night Stalker: ive said it before, and i'll say it again. if you stop GOOD Americans from having guns, the only ones that would have them are the BAD Americans. drugs are illegal, yet people can get them pretty much anywhere. some guns are illegal, yet people own them.

This is EXACTLY why I'm against any kind of firearms prohibition. You can look at the history of ANY particular country with regards to violence and legal possession of any kind of weapon and EASILY see that the law abiding citizens aren't the problem.

Does anybody _really_ believe that disarming the law abiding people actually achieves a desirable goal?

Self-defence is a RIGHT, and disarming people seriously cuts into that right; especially when all the criminals just laugh at the law and arm themselves anyways.

I read a study recently about two different jurisdictions in the US; one of these jurisdictions had the highest murder rate in North America - it also had the most strict gun laws in all of North America. The other jurisdiction (that just happened to be across a state border) had much easier access to firearms - it also had the LOWEST murder rate in the US (if not all of NA).

(Some of you might guess the first one mentioned is Washington D.C.)

[Sir Krustin]

Originally posted by MagiK: Gaaaaaaaah Im locked out from work again Sir T. [img]smile.gif[/img] lookforward to discussing firearms with you when I get the next chance. In all my years using Rifles and Pistols I have never heard anyone promote the .223 as a "sniper" round. the .223 is a far cry from a .308 and that has always been the round of choice by anyone I have been associated with for a sniper round unless you start talking 3/4 mile or so then they start talking about about the big .50. The AR15,M16 are assault type weaposn and are not designed for long range fire. THe M16 round is designed to tumble..definately NOT something you want happening for long range shots.

A couple of comments. Yes, I agree with your assessment, but it's important to note that the caliber he's discussing here is a center-fire cartridge - MUCH more powerful than yer typical varmint round (usually .22LR; though .223 is used) It has sufficient velocity to get good accuracy out to 600+ yds. I still prefer the .243 for nuisance varmint hunting, mainly because wolf and coyote are a problem up here. (Can you say *splat* when shooting groundhogs?? )

Also...addressing a popular misconception here...the M-16 round is *NOT* designed to tumble!! The M-16 is a rifle, this means that there are a number of spiral grooves inside the barrel designed to impart a spin to the projectile that leaves the barrel. This spin is exactly why rifles are preferable to old style smoothbore weapons -- they impart a stability to the round that makes it much more accurate. By nature, a spinning bullet does not tumble. In fact, studies by Dr. Fackler have shown that .223 rounds (such as those fired by the M-16) only tumble when fired through foliage; and even then they tumble EXACTLY ONCE, and then resume a steady trajectory.

A Marine armoury sergeant tells me that older M-16s with worn barrels (and less twist) were prone to tumbling, but these weapons are obviously not desirable for sniper use.

Originally posted by MagiK: As for effectiveness we would never use our .223 for a human or deer size target if we had access to a larger round, such as a .243, .284 or .308 (I really like the .284 but they are hard to find. We lost several deer after we hit them and knocked them down with the .223, found one of them later and there was a circular bare spot where the hot load .223 exploded on contact with the skin and blew all the hair and surface level of the hide right off but didnt stop the deer

You need to learn how to shoot! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I know Indians that shoot whitetails and *moose* with .22LR single-shots!

[Lord of Alcohol]

The .223 is not a sniper round as MagiK has said. When I was in the Marines we qualified from 200,300,and 500 yards on the M-16A1. And 500 was really pushing it. Marine snipers use a Remington .308, 30-06, or .50. Likely this guy was trained on a .223 and has a spiffy assault rifle that he thinks makes him cool. Personally I'd like to shoot him with my own spiffy assault rifle.
And 250 I read the book by Carlos Hathcock also, the guy was amazing. He has since died of Parkinsons disease a few years ago.

[*\Conan/*]

Well, it is very close to home here. This is a very weird thing out of the "ordinary" shootings and battles. Bad, and very sad. Everyone is pulling together---> My prayers and ears, eyes ..

*\Conan/*

[Sir Taliesin]

Hi LofA and Majik! Been a while since I talked to you both! My last tour of duty was with the 125th ARCOM Rifle team. I personally used a National Match M-14 (7.62x51 or .308), but those rifles are now being phased out of the inventory. The ALL ARMY Rifle Team switched over to the AR15 National Match Rifle and went to a heavier bullet than what is currently used by the US and NATO. They use a Speer 82 grain match grade bullet. Their particular load is as accurate as any match grade .308 currently on the market. Now that bullet has to be matched with a certain twist (1 in 7 if my memory is correct) in barrel. The venerable M-16a1 had a twist rate of 1 in 12 and fired a much lighter bullet, which decreased it's range to 600 meters. When the Marines adopted the M-16a2, they went with a heavier barrel and a 1 in 9 twist rate to match the slightly heavier NATO adopted round. The M-16a2 is a much more accurate weapon at a longer distance. The National Match is even more so!

Where am I going with this you ask? Well if you go purchase a Shotgun Newspaper at your local Walmart, you'll find that you can purchase one of these babies at about $200 more than a standard AR15. I should think for around $1000. That's another reason why police departments like them so much.

BTW, at Camp Perry (The biggest Rifle Match in the US), the National Match AR15 is the Target Rifle of choice in the Service Rifle catagory. the Marine Corp Rifle Team as won several Service Rifle Matches with and no longer use the M-14NM.

LofA you are correct in stating that the Sniper rifle of choice is a 7.62x51. (Remington makes them). But next time you watch the news pay close attention to what the SF guys are using on their M-16a2s and M-4s.

[ 10-08-2002, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: Sir Taliesin ]

[The Hunter of Jahanna]

hey sir T , my dad was in that rifle unit as well. If you shoot like he does then maybe you should go to D.C.,find the sniper , and shoot back. My pops was out last weekend banging bulls eyes at 2000 yards with iron sights as preparation for hunting season this year.

Originally posted by Sir Krustin: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Gaaaaaaaah Im locked out from work again Sir T. [img]smile.gif[/img] lookforward to discussing firearms with you when I get the next chance. In all my years using Rifles and Pistols I have never heard anyone promote the .223 as a "sniper" round. the .223 is a far cry from a .308 and that has always been the round of choice by anyone I have been associated with for a sniper round unless you start talking 3/4 mile or so then they start talking about about the big .50. The AR15,M16 are assault type weaposn and are not designed for long range fire. THe M16 round is designed to tumble..definately NOT something you want happening for long range shots.

A couple of comments. Yes, I agree with your assessment, but it's important to note that the caliber he's discussing here is a center-fire cartridge - MUCH more powerful than yer typical varmint round (usually .22LR; though .223 is used) It has sufficient velocity to get good accuracy out to 600+ yds. I still prefer the .243 for nuisance varmint hunting, mainly because wolf and coyote are a problem up here. (Can you say *splat* when shooting groundhogs?? )

My varmit gun IS a .223 and it IS a center fire and I WON't use it on Deer or other large game because there is too much of a chance of just maiming the animal rather than a quick kill. Oh and I have seen groundhogs shrug off LR rounds from 100 yards. The .243 is a better all round varmit gun I think because you can better take down the bigger critters but I never liked it for white tail....too many shoulder shots didn't drop. (yes I hit them..you can hear the impact when you hit an animal with a bullet) We also used the .223 for picking off Turkeys at 100-300 yards with head shots. (ok we used a bench rest and a scope)

Also...addressing a popular misconception here...the M-16 round is *NOT* designed to tumble!! The M-16 is a rifle, this means that there are a number of spiral grooves inside the barrel designed to impart a spin to the projectile that leaves the barrel. This spin is exactly why rifles are preferable to old style smoothbore weapons -- they impart a stability to the round that makes it much more accurate. By nature, a spinning bullet does not tumble. In fact, studies by Dr. Fackler have shown that .223 rounds (such as those fired by the M-16) only tumble when fired through foliage; and even then they tumble EXACTLY ONCE, and then resume a steady trajectory.

You must not be watching the same gun shows that I have then [img]smile.gif[/img] And I do know that they are absolutly crap for real long range shooting. It isnt the barrel or rifeling that causes the tumble by the by, it is the standard round that is fired that does that.>

A Marine armoury sergeant tells me that older M-16s with worn barrels (and less twist) were prone to tumbling, but these weapons are obviously not desirable for sniper use.

Originally posted by MagiK: As for effectiveness we would never use our .223 for a human or deer size target if we had access to a larger round, such as a .243, .284 or .308 (I really like the .284 but they are hard to find. We lost several deer after we hit them and knocked them down with the .223, found one of them later and there was a circular bare spot where the hot load .223 exploded on contact with the skin and blew all the hair and surface level of the hide right off but didnt stop the deer

You need to learn how to shoot! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I know Indians that shoot whitetails and *moose* with .22LR single-shots![/QUOTE]LOL I didnt say you COULDNT kill a deer with a .223 I said we lost too many for it to be really humane or economical...I have never taken a White Tail with a .22LR but for a while we did use a 22Hornet which is not too much beefier. Basicly we wanted clean clear 1 shot 1 kill with little chance for error. We prefered head shots because we don't waste the meat, but on the first day of Buck season we allow Heart/Lung/Shoulder shots.

Anyway [img]smile.gif[/img] thanks for the info, I love talking guns...though it is off topic and um annoys some people. [img]smile.gif[/img]

PS. I was never on any rifle team (not many of those in the Navy [img]smile.gif[/img] ) but I did consistantly qualify expert both with the M14 and M16 and Pistols (9mm, 38 and yes with my .357 (a Smith 686) I could never get expert with the 45 for some reason though..I just couldnt shoot straight with it)


Hope I can get back in here form work tomorrow.