Todays Genders in Society

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Originally posted by Epona:


I haven't done any of those things - I have been polite and courteous throughout. If you think that I was poking and prodding, well then I'm sorry if I have upset you. It was not my intention, please be assured.

I do think that it is a little peevish to 'cede the field' claiming that I have hurt your feelings and been rude, when all I have been doing is putting up as good an argument as yourself, which I thought you would enjoy - obviously some people don't appreciate a debate, so my apologies.

I am more than happy to agree to differ on the subject, it is the thrill of the debate that counts, not the outcome.

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Umm I dont recall ever having indicated that my feeling had been hurt...or even involved....peevish?? I think not..I just couldnt afford any more time to the subject as I had a meeting to attend and didnt want you thinkinng I was stompping off to pout [img]smile.gif[/img] I AM at work during the day afterall...and they do occasionaly request that I do something to earn my salary [img]smile.gif[/img]

As for the debate, I enjoyed it..but I think it ended up being useless cause neither side seems to have ended up with any good info....no strike that..since you did post some interesting reference material I got somehtingout of this...so I guess it was just you that came up short on getting anything out of it

All in all I never took offense at anything that was done..however I do admit to being confused by you on several occasions....which is no big deal as I enjoy a little confusion most of the time.


Pax

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Originally posted by Garnet FalconDance:


You may have been only teasing, but in actuality it *is* the alpha male in a canine pack who submits in the end to the alpha bitch.

FINALLY, you get to the whole point--it is the survival of the species et al. which has led to most of this damned stereotyping rather than an inate superiority/inferiority between the sexes. Now then, this has obviously led to a differentiation of behaviour....which when added to other societal factors has led to the commonly held beliefs of what comprises 'masculine' and 'feminine'. Geesh. Took you long enough! [img]smile.gif[/img]

And yes, we probably respond to each other differently, but I agree that it has more to do with how well we know a person outside the debate than by how we perceive them as obtuse male or sympathetic female (sorry, couldn't help myself). I haven't seen any bra-burning fems or any testosterone-laden brutes posting flamelets......so we must be okay.

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Garnet sweetie [img]smile.gif[/img] I tried really really hard to avoid any hint that I thought one sex was superior to the other...I praise them both and their differences..I was just pointing out general differences and that each had its strengths and weaknesses and they both need each other.....well except in cases of homosexuality in which case they found that the sexes didnt really need each other unless it was for reproduction but thats a whole differnt kettle of worms.

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Originally posted by Larry_OHF:
I have not taken the time to read much of this thread, but if anybody cares to know...I love shopping, even if I do not have the money to buy anything, and can take hours to decide on a shirt...I do 90% of the house cleaning...I do 50% of the cooking, and my cooking abilities is better than my wife's(she admits, sourly), and the baby is on good behavior only for me.
Karen is cut and dry simple shopping(does not like to take long), and her ability to understand the mortgage, and fill out the taxes surpasses me.
So, we are kind of against the stereotypical lifestyles of man and woman. I could give more examples, but I am at work...

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Larry when it comes to day to day life there is no reason in a civilised world why a man cannot share in all those activities (though I detest shopping). [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Originally posted by Sir Kenyth:
Aggressiveness and physical strength have been the prime requisetes of a successful animal for eons. It's silly to think that just because we've been civilized for several hundred years that it would all change at once. Male and female behavior is somewhat "bred in the bone". Yes, we can easily learn to act differently from what our muted instincts tell us. That doesn't mean that the sympathetic reactions from our unconscious minds don't exist. Don't you ever wonder why young women SAY they want NICE guys and then CHASE AFTER exciting bad boys? They seem to shun non-confrotational personalities in favor of ones who like a little heated arguement, who get into fist fights once in a while, who like competition and winning everything? Why, even though these same guys act like jerks quite often? It's because their behavior matches what women are instinctually programmed to see as strong genes. They get that excited feeling around stong, agressive, good-looking guys. As they get older and have some experience to draw upon, their opinions may change. Young women primarily go by gut feeling (instinct) to determine what gets their juices flowing.

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Heheh uh-oh careful now next thing ya know we might be admitting that Man (and women) are animals and have a baser instinctual side...some people do not like to admit this [img]smile.gif[/img] (and no I didnt mean anyone on here)

Just to clear up one little thing that I just noticed....when I commented on "Real Men" I implied that there was something wrong or inadaquate in men who didnt "live up to" this arbitrary standard I was ranting about, that was NOT what I intended to communicate...less testosteronie types of people have every bit as much to contribute and are just as valid and important...just in different roles...I dont know how to convey what I was talking about in a better manner....but the good news I have several Business communications courses left in my education so I should get better with time [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Gabriel]

Magik there a whole (Sorry) heck of a lot I want to say to you right now but I really dough I put it as nicely as Epona can but I try.

1)History has been for a long time written by the sex that believed and taught but culture to be soupier and so they read that fact into found evidence, which has now been disturbed and so can not be re-examined without preconceptions.

2)I think this was been touched upon but the physical make up on man is designed to kill, but this does not automatically mean hunting. Males design could very well of developed due to its need to prevent others males from 'taking' the females.

3)Physical difference is pointless, women give birth so there bodies designed themselves to so as best they can, men so not need to they adapted to fight each other to get mates.
As for the thinking processes I not sure want you mean here so without there info I just going to talk about what I know. Men’s brains are larger then women’s but women uses more of their. So this could mean that their brains developed better thought processes them mans and so they didn't have to be so big.

[ 01-31-2002: Message edited by: Gabriel ]

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Originally posted by Gabriel:
Magik there a whore heck of a lot I want to say to you right now but I really dough I put it as nicely as Epona can but I try.

1)History has been for a long time written by the sex that believed and taught but culture to be soupier and so they read that fact into found evidence, which has now been disturbed and so can not be re-examined without preconceptions.

2)I think this was been touched upon but the physical make up on man is designed to kill, but this does not automatically mean hunting. Males design could very well of developed due to its need to prevent others males from 'taking' the females.

3)Physical difference is pointless, women give birth so there bodies designed themselves to so as best they can, men so not need to they adapted to fight each other to get mates.
As for the thinking processes I not sure want you mean here so without there info I just going to talk about what I know. Men’s brains are larger then women’s but women uses more of their. So this could mean that their brains developed better thought processes them mans and so they didn't have to be so big.

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Gabe man the last bit about who is better...is not something I was addressing as I dont think either gender is "better" than the other, but I do acknowledge the fact that some things males excell at and some things females excell at, there is no shame in the differences in gender, and there is no bettter or worse gender....there are just differences in what each does to what degree.

[fable]

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Originally posted by MagiK:


Fable the mental differences in thought processes between men and women have been well known and well documented for centuries if not from before recorded history..just look at all the Mars/Venus books, and ask ANYONE who is married. Its not an absolute, some men think like women and some women think and act more like men...were talking general percentages of the population..the "Norm"

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Magik, what you point to above is a difference in documented behavior, which I suggest is based upon cultural conditioning, not inate mental differences. Again, I think when you refer to "men think like women," etc, you're referring to the characteristics society trains its children to perceive as manly or womanly. Step outside the culture, and you might find entirely different norms. The ancient Greek historian Herodotus, for instance, pointed out that Babylonian men squatted to urinate, and regarded standing with scorn. Yet a modern Italian youth would be inclined to attack with fists (or worse) if you suggested he not stand to answer a call of nature.

[WOLFGIR]

OKI, I have studied alot of canine packs, hence my name, I have read books, studied nature movies, talked online with experts and such. Would you believe me when I say this about canine packs?

They are flexible, very flexible when it comes to choosing alpha male and alpha females, and beta males and beta females and ceta males and ceta females...

And to say this about males and females in the pack.. The pack decides. If a alpha female don´t want to mate the alpha male, their will be a fight of dominance between the males. If the same male wins, they will mate. The same thing occurs if the alpha male chosses to mate another female, the current alpga female will have a fight of dominance. So they are more or less choosing one another. They don´t really have the same debate as we do. Might makes right in a wolfpack, you choose the strongest because that is the only way to survive, and they need each other. Sometimes a pack is taken over by a new couple, two lone wolves male and female that hunts for a pack to lead. (see? they work together.. such nice rolemodels and they have a pension system too! Cubs and elders get their share of food when food is to be found at least..)

If a pack is lead by an alpha wolf male, he chooses the strongest female, the alpha female to have his cubs with. Why? Because he wants his genes to be spread and be touger and tougher, better and have a greater chance to even survive. If a alpha male dies, the alpha female leads the pack unless she is with cubs, then the beta male leads. The whole pack go for hunting, except the ones charged with the cubs and the ones to old to hunt. The alpha male and alpha female succumb to each other only in certain events.

1. The pack is lead by the alpha female (she is not with cubs), she chooses the new alpha male if he is worthy to lead the pack.
2. The alpha male always back down when the alpha female is with cubs. You don´t fight when you are going to have cubs.
3. The alpha female don´t lead the pack in hunting, male wolves are bigger and stronger then fmelae wolves, but she participates in the hunting at his side.. (a couple of hundred yards in wold terms)

A fighting alpha male that has won over the last alpha male is always alpha male, and he is automaticly with the alpha female since they are the strongest, the females have thier rank the males their, and then the pack has thei rank.

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About hunting magik, their are alot of evidence from archelogy digs that shows lately that women participated in the hunt along side men, some cultures even had the lions approach, the males stayed home and the women provided food, including hunting.

In egypt, under the reign of certain pharaoes and under Cleopatra theri were certain cavalier units consisting only female warriors. In some cultures women today are treated like shit. In some cultures women fight alongside men against injustices aremd to the teeth.

We are first and foremost tooluser adaptable like hell to any environment. These discussions marking words and phrases here and then is as creative as a bridge in Albania.. Why the heck never ever HOW can we make something better? What can we do to allow men and women to be the best they can without loosing integrity???

To me that is far more important, but that is just me..

[ 01-31-2002: Message edited by: WOLFGIR ]

[Gabriel]

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Originally posted by MagiK:


Gabe man the last bit about who is better...is not something I was addressing as I dont think either gender is "better" than the other, but I do acknowledge the fact that some things males excell at and some things females excell at, there is no shame in the differences in gender, and there is no bettter or worse gender....there are just differences in what each does to what degree.

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Are you talking about my last bit or yours?
Mine was just something I know about brain size, with a mild case of guesss work about thought prosseces. The only reason I added it was it all I know on the subject and you never when in to any detail about the difference in male female thinking.