WAR MISCALCULATIONS

[Azred]

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke

We're not "pointing fingers" at the Iraqi people, nor are we demonstrating that they are in any way less that we are. This is about finally getting around to removing a horrible government that commits atrocities against its own people. I think everyone in the world should be ashamed for letting things go on like they have for so long. No matter the moral failures inside the US, when something is right it is right.

[img]graemlins/erm.gif[/img] The only unfortunate conclusion I can reach from this line of reasoning is that it means that Coalitions of nations must continue to form to "assist" evil governments out of power. I don't think the world is ready for that just yet.

In a feeble attempt to steer the thread back onto its original topic...I think the worst "miscalculation" actually happened years ago when the US failed to remove Hussein at the end of the Gulf War. Bush Sr. was director of the CIA for years and should have understood the concept of "rectifying errors in judgement".

[Animal]

Originally posted by Mordenheim: Yes they are being commited everywhere. Let me try to make this VERY clear for you friend The B I G difference is : It is SANCTIONED allowed torture, abuse, rape, murder of men, women, children in some places. I draw a DISTINCT difference in LEGAL and ILLEGAL actions. I don't care how many polls, stats, crime sheets you place in front of me. There is a BIG difference. A policeman can not LEGALLY take a woman and rape her ANYWHERE in the United States. Has it ever happened? I am sure it has but it is VERY illegal and if caught will pay the price as ANY citizen. If you see this as the same then I honestly give up. I am not sure I have EVER run into that mentality. Second this throw stones is the biggest crock I have ever heard. If that was the case then everyone should ignore everything. I have NEVER hit a woman, child, or even animal in my entire lifetime. I will damn well throw stones at ANYONE who has done so. More then that I will throw even bigger one's at ANY country that ALLOWS this due to religious, power, or any other contributing factor. In America we do EVERYTHING possible to discourage and stop abuse. Man you amaze me. Honestly I would HATE to live in a world where no one judged anyone. It would be filled with murder, rape, and anarchy in every corner of society. I will judge any and every government that I feel treats women as second class citizens. I don't care what culture or religious slant they put on it. Period

So if an action is considered to be illegal, and that action takes place anyway, is it considered better than if it where committed in a place where it was legal?

I have been quite clear on your viepoint for some time now, and you have every right to judge people in your country based upon your laws and your value system. I believe it is wrong for me judge another country based upon the laws and values of my own.

I think it's time that we agree to disagree on this subject and leave it at that. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Animal]

Originally posted by Azred: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke We're not "pointing fingers" at the Iraqi people, nor are we demonstrating that they are in any way less that we are. This is about finally getting around to removing a horrible government that commits atrocities against its own people. I think everyone in the world should be ashamed for letting things go on like they have for so long. No matter the moral failures inside the US, when something is right it is right. [img]graemlins/erm.gif[/img] The only unfortunate conclusion I can reach from this line of reasoning is that it means that Coalitions of nations must continue to form to "assist" evil governments out of power. I don't think the world is ready for that just yet. In a feeble attempt to steer the thread back onto its original topic...I think the worst "miscalculation" actually happened years ago when the US failed to remove Hussein at the end of the Gulf War. Bush Sr. was director of the CIA for years and should have understood the concept of "rectifying errors in judgement".

Actually, it was the UN who "called off the dogs" back during the original Gulf War, not the US. Bush was fully behind removing Saddam from power, and probably should have been left to do so.

I think most people expected the Iraqi's to fight side by side with the coalition in an effort to overthrow Saddam, hence a miscalculation.

[Mordenheim]

Ok, now you are parsing word's and I believe arguing just to argue.

Call it humanity. Call it compassion. Call it being human. Call it legal and illegal. Call it a heart. Call it that little thing inside.

Let me get this straight

You do not judge the Iraqi government as wrong? The Taliban as evil? or any form of religous and/or culture that allow's abuse/torture/murder of any of their people wrong?

.......

Well that is where we are way different. The Taliban was evil and destroyed. The Sadam goverment was worse. Hitler was a very bad man. Oh sorry, god forbid I judge such people

[Skunk]

You do not judge the Iraqi government as wrong? The Taliban as evil? or any form of religous and/or culture that allow's abuse/torture/murder of any of their people wrong?

No less evil than countries which do these same things to the citizen's of other countries. *No-one* can claim a moral righteousness in this war.

[ 04-06-2003, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: Skunk ]

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Skunk: Quote: You do not judge the Iraqi government as wrong? The Taliban as evil? or any form of religous and/or culture that allow's abuse/torture/murder of any of their people wrong?

No less evil than countries which do these same things to the citizen's of other countries. *No-one* can claim a moral righteousness in this war.[/QUOTE]Which means the solution is to -- DO NOTHING ????? [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img]

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Animal: Actually, it was the UN who "called off the dogs" back during the original Gulf War, not the US. Bush was fully behind removing Saddam from power, and probably should have been left to do so.

Wrong. Sorry, but wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Bush saw footage Colin Powell showed him of the "highway of death" and other horrible defeats where the US basically mopped up the enemy. He told Bush he would advise ending the war within 24-48 hours.

Bush saw the PR problem of helicopters chasing down troops fleeing on foot and called it off. He said, "If we're going to end it then, we may as well end it now."

Much to their chagrin, as soon as they told Iraq they could end it, Iraq asked "You mean we can fly overhead to put down revolutions in the south?" Scwharzkoff said, "Yes, we are leaving."

Even though we were pulling out, Bush encouraged the Iraqi people to rise up and overthrow Saddam. The Kurds in the north and other tribes in the south tried. They were answered with chemical bombs, mass murders, random executions, and other horrible attrocities, directly mosly by Chemical Ali at Saddam's behest.

Then, those attrocities forced the US to establish No-Fly Zones.

Everyone always gets this sequence of events so very wrong.

[Animal]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Quote: Originally posted by Skunk: Quote: You do not judge the Iraqi government as wrong? The Taliban as evil? or any form of religous and/or culture that allow's abuse/torture/murder of any of their people wrong?

No less evil than countries which do these same things to the citizen's of other countries. *No-one* can claim a moral righteousness in this war.[/QUOTE]Which means the solution is to -- DO NOTHING ????? [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]I don't know what the solution is, but the government should at least be honest about the reasons for doing it.

The original debate started out as myself taking offense to some posts made that were, in my opinion, offensive and didn't need to be said. This brought out a debate about the morals of judging one society based upon the values of our own.

Whatever the solution may be, you and I certainly have no say in it. Is Bush doing the right thing? Who knows, but he's not doing it for the reasons he claimed originaly.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Quote: Originally posted by Skunk: Quote: You do not judge the Iraqi government as wrong? The Taliban as evil? or any form of religous and/or culture that allow's abuse/torture/murder of any of their people wrong?

No less evil than countries which do these same things to the citizen's of other countries. *No-one* can claim a moral righteousness in this war.[/QUOTE]Which means the solution is to -- DO NOTHING ????? [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]Correction TL that's do nothing and watch the bodies pile up FOR years and years to come.

[Azred]

Originally posted by Animal: I think most people expected the Iraqi's to fight side by side with the coalition in an effort to overthrow Saddam, hence a miscalculation.

True. The ability of a populace to successfully overthrow a government has decreased dramatically in the last century, given the increase in the lethality and availability of weapons governments have available to them. Did that make sense? Governments have more guns than the people do. (There, I was able to state it more simply).

[img]graemlins/laugh3.gif[/img] Oh, the wisdom of the light green mage. [img]tongue.gif[/img] at self