Aid Money - to get things into perspective - Page 6

Ronn_Bman · 11-26-2001, 06:23 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:

But yes, going back to evil actions that take place, and that have consequences. Obviously we have to take steps to deal with those actions, and if we can, prevent them from happening again. But I'm not one of those that thinks that violence solves all problems. All that happens is you temporarily stun the problem, which then gets up again when you're least expecting it, grabs your weapon, and beats the shit out of you with it. (Which is basically what has happened in Afghanistan.....)

Violence doesn't solve everything, but neither does pacifism. The problems in Afghanistan have not been caused by US actions. The tribes in Afghanistan have been fighting one another for thousands of years. We aided the freedom fighters against the Soviets. We didn't stay around after providing them the aid to do that, but our goal wasn't to put into power a specific group, it was, instead to eject the Soviets. The Taliban was not a group put into power by the US, but instead a group that seized power from those who claimed Afghanistan after the Soviets left.

Silver Cheetah · 11-26-2001, 06:30 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Cloudbringer:

The numbers are interesting... but then I don't take such things at face value most times. I've got this thing about numbers.. we agree to disagree.. hehe.. and I balance my checkbook occasionally.

And to those who seem to think that just because a country/people benefit from donations or aid, it's somehow not good anymore... uh hello! Aid and help are aid and help. Motivation is not the issue.. I for one, don't know too many completely altruistic people, despite what you may want to think. Just because I may give you something, knowing I get some good in return, does NOT change the fact I gave you something.

Cloudy, not in 'a mood' today

The statistics come from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. It's an organisation that helps and advises governments all over the world on coping with the challenges that are arising as a result of globalisation. They are not just pulled out of the air - I have seem similar statistics quoted in a number of different contexts over the past couple of weeks - in fact, it was a newspaper article that got me interested. Until then, I'd taken the chest beating as gospel.

Just a small point - could you explain what you meant by the following? The syntax confused me somewhat.... And to those who seem to think that just because a country/people benefit from donations or aid, it's somehow not good anymore... uh hello! '

Once I understand it, I might be able to reply to your point. Thanks.

Silver Cheetah · 11-26-2001, 06:33 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:

I know you may feel the "America the Beautiful, the Brave, and the Generous" is a myth, but not completely so. Even at that, American's as a whole don't believe we are the greatest and everyone else should bow before US in gratitude. In this forum American's, who in everyday life, complain about what is wrong with America defend her against, what they think is, a verbal attack. Whether it's intended that way or not, we get defensive. The slight admissions of generousity or helpfulness from the US are completely overpowered by the "America complaints". We do open our eyes and look at things, but when people want to shove those things down our throat - we choke on them!

Yes, I completely understand that. When an opposite position is taken to what we believe in, our original stance usually hardens, and we end up overstating our case to defend ourselves from what we perceive as an attack. Been there..... [img]smile.gif[/img]

Silver Cheetah · 11-26-2001, 06:44 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:

Violence doesn't solve everything, but neither does pacifism. The problems in Afghanistan have not been caused by US actions. The tribes in Afghanistan have been fighting one another for thousands of years. We aided the freedom fighters against the Soviets. We didn't stay around after providing them the aid to do that, but our goal wasn't to put into power a specific group, it was, instead to eject the Soviets. The Taliban was not a group put into power by the US, but instead a group that seized power from those who claimed Afghanistan after the Soviets left.

I am not a pacifist. I'd like to be, but I just don't have the temprament for it, and it would be a total hypocrisy for me to take up the pacifist banner. Ron, we've had this discussion before, on why I don't think the war is actually going to achieve any of the US's long term ends re eradicating terrorism, and may actually serve, in the long run, to make the situation worse.

On the aiding the freedom fighters front - well, all I can say is, learning from mistakes is a great thing.

Honestly, it would be in America's best interests as well as the rest of the world to have some sort of body with TEETH that would actually be mandated to work for world peace and security, rather than America taking on this global policeman role.

But we've been through all that as well.... let's not go there again, please! (I warn you, I shall just go back and cut and paste my original posts. I'm a gemini, which means I don't like repeating myself... God, we've had *that* discussion as well...... [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img] )

Silver Cheetah · 11-26-2001, 06:49 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:

Sorry, I just like the look of my own typing...lol. Nervous chatter because I'm afraid I'll be left out of the picture sharing [img]smile.gif[/img]

Tracey and I are expecting you to contribute your own possie pose, my ducks. The question is, will it be clad or shiny? [img]smile.gif[/img]

Ronn_Bman · 11-26-2001, 06:52 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:

I am not a pacifist. I'd like to be, but I just don't have the temprament for it, and it would be a total hypocrisy for me to take up the pacifist banner. Ron, we've had this discussion before, on why I don't think the war is actually going to achieve any of the US's long term ends re eradicating terrorism, and may actually serve, in the long run, to make the situation worse.

On the aiding the freedom fighters front - well, all I can say is, learning from mistakes is a great thing.

Honestly, it would be in America's best interests as well as the rest of the world to have some sort of body with TEETH that would actually be mandated to work for world peace and security, rather than America taking on this global policeman role.

But we've been through all that as well.... let's not go there again, please! (I warn you, I shall just go back and cut and paste my original posts. I'm a gemini, which means I don't like repeating myself... God, we've had *that* discussion as well...... [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img] )

I didn't mean you specifically were a pacifist, just pointing out the two ends of the spectrum.

A UN with teeth would be great, we've actually agreed on that before, but unfortunately even they would have to result to violence to achieve certain ends.

I won't cut and paste if you wont...lol! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

BTW, congratulation me on my 1,000th post! Six or eight weeks ago, I only had 50 after 6 months here [img]smile.gif[/img] What the heck is this avatar of mine suppose to be?

Silver Cheetah · 11-26-2001, 06:58 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:

I didn't mean you specifically were a pacifist, just pointing out the two ends of the spectrum.

A UN with teeth would be great, we've actually agreed on that before, but unfortunately even they would have to result to violence to achieve certain ends.

I won't cut and paste if you want...lol! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

BTW, congratulation me on my 1,000th post! Six or eight weeks ago, I only had 50 after 6 months here [img]smile.gif[/img] What the heck is this avatar of mine suppose to be?

Congratulations....... and celebrations........ wibbly woo! Hurrah! Your avatar is the same as mine. It's an emerald dragon what looks like a load of skulls or something, dead cheery...... I've had mine for ever and ever and ever...... Looks like it's going to hang on til 1500, unless Ziroc changes the avatars again... It's enough to make a girl take to spamming......

Ronn_Bman · 11-26-2001, 07:30 PM

To me, they look like green bells, turned upside down, and tilted to the left?!?!?!

Do you know the link to the avatar progression chart? Ziroc posted it in a GD thread once before but I hate to go digging around if you, my knowledgible friend, can save me the trouble

Oh, and your point about the "bottom" pictures and the hairy tail is kind of scary...lol.

Naked Wild Man · 11-26-2001, 11:45 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:

I don't think anyone said America provided the most aid to all the poorer nations of the world, but I'm glad to know we're number two overall!

You are joking, right?

Pathetic is what it is.

If America's generosity lived up to the self image of americans, America would of course be by far the biggest donator of wealth in the world, as by far the richest country. But, it isn't even the biggest total donor, much less outstripping all others by far.

And comparitive generosity can only be judged in relation to what the donor can afford to give. The cold, hard facts say that far from being the generous donor nation many americans claim, when compared to other developed western nations it is among the most miserly and stingiest.

Cloudbringer · 11-27-2001, 12:10 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:
To me, they look like green bells, turned upside down, and tilted to the left?!?!?!

Do you know the link to the avatar progression chart? Ziroc posted it in a GD thread once before but I hate to go digging around if you, my knowledgible friend, can save me the trouble

Oh, and your point about the "bottom" pictures and the hairy tail is kind of scary...lol.

The are emeralds, Ronn! [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img]

Cloudy [img]graemlins/stormy.gif[/img]

11-26-2001, 06:23 PM	#51
Ronn_Bman Zartan Join Date: March 11, 2001 Location: North Carolina USA Age: 58 Posts: 5,177	quote: Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: But yes, going back to evil actions that take place, and that have consequences. Obviously we have to take steps to deal with those actions, and if we can, prevent them from happening again. But I'm not one of those that thinks that violence solves all problems. All that happens is you temporarily stun the problem, which then gets up again when you're least expecting it, grabs your weapon, and beats the shit out of you with it. (Which is basically what has happened in Afghanistan.....) Violence doesn't solve everything, but neither does pacifism. The problems in Afghanistan have not been caused by US actions. The tribes in Afghanistan have been fighting one another for thousands of years. We aided the freedom fighters against the Soviets. We didn't stay around after providing them the aid to do that, but our goal wasn't to put into power a specific group, it was, instead to eject the Soviets. The Taliban was not a group put into power by the US, but instead a group that seized power from those who claimed Afghanistan after the Soviets left. __________________ [img]\"http://home.carolina.rr.com/orthanc/pics/Spinning%20Hammer%20Sig%20Pic.gif\" alt=\" - \" />

11-26-2001, 06:30 PM	#52
Silver Cheetah Fzoul Chembryl Join Date: July 26, 2001 Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK Posts: 1,781	quote: Originally posted by Cloudbringer: The numbers are interesting... but then I don't take such things at face value most times. I've got this thing about numbers.. we agree to disagree.. hehe.. and I balance my checkbook occasionally. And to those who seem to think that just because a country/people benefit from donations or aid, it's somehow not good anymore... uh hello! Aid and help are aid and help. Motivation is not the issue.. I for one, don't know too many completely altruistic people, despite what you may want to think. Just because I may give you something, knowing I get some good in return, does NOT change the fact I gave you something. Cloudy, not in 'a mood' today The statistics come from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. It's an organisation that helps and advises governments all over the world on coping with the challenges that are arising as a result of globalisation. They are not just pulled out of the air - I have seem similar statistics quoted in a number of different contexts over the past couple of weeks - in fact, it was a newspaper article that got me interested. Until then, I'd taken the chest beating as gospel. Just a small point - could you explain what you meant by the following? The syntax confused me somewhat.... And to those who seem to think that just because a country/people benefit from donations or aid, it's somehow not good anymore... uh hello! ' Once I understand it, I might be able to reply to your point. Thanks. __________________

11-26-2001, 06:33 PM	#53
Silver Cheetah Fzoul Chembryl Join Date: July 26, 2001 Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK Posts: 1,781	quote: Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: I know you may feel the "America the Beautiful, the Brave, and the Generous" is a myth, but not completely so. Even at that, American's as a whole don't believe we are the greatest and everyone else should bow before US in gratitude. In this forum American's, who in everyday life, complain about what is wrong with America defend her against, what they think is, a verbal attack. Whether it's intended that way or not, we get defensive. The slight admissions of generousity or helpfulness from the US are completely overpowered by the "America complaints". We do open our eyes and look at things, but when people want to shove those things down our throat - we choke on them! Yes, I completely understand that. When an opposite position is taken to what we believe in, our original stance usually hardens, and we end up overstating our case to defend ourselves from what we perceive as an attack. Been there..... [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________

11-26-2001, 06:44 PM	#54
Silver Cheetah Fzoul Chembryl Join Date: July 26, 2001 Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK Posts: 1,781	quote: Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: Violence doesn't solve everything, but neither does pacifism. The problems in Afghanistan have not been caused by US actions. The tribes in Afghanistan have been fighting one another for thousands of years. We aided the freedom fighters against the Soviets. We didn't stay around after providing them the aid to do that, but our goal wasn't to put into power a specific group, it was, instead to eject the Soviets. The Taliban was not a group put into power by the US, but instead a group that seized power from those who claimed Afghanistan after the Soviets left. I am not a pacifist. I'd like to be, but I just don't have the temprament for it, and it would be a total hypocrisy for me to take up the pacifist banner. Ron, we've had this discussion before, on why I don't think the war is actually going to achieve any of the US's long term ends re eradicating terrorism, and may actually serve, in the long run, to make the situation worse. On the aiding the freedom fighters front - well, all I can say is, learning from mistakes is a great thing. Honestly, it would be in America's best interests as well as the rest of the world to have some sort of body with TEETH that would actually be mandated to work for world peace and security, rather than America taking on this global policeman role. But we've been through all that as well.... let's not go there again, please! (I warn you, I shall just go back and cut and paste my original posts. I'm a gemini, which means I don't like repeating myself... God, we've had that discussion as well...... [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img] ) __________________

11-26-2001, 06:49 PM	#55
Silver Cheetah Fzoul Chembryl Join Date: July 26, 2001 Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK Posts: 1,781	quote: Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: Sorry, I just like the look of my own typing...lol. Nervous chatter because I'm afraid I'll be left out of the picture sharing [img]smile.gif[/img] Tracey and I are expecting you to contribute your own possie pose, my ducks. The question is, will it be clad or shiny? [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________

11-26-2001, 06:52 PM	#56
Ronn_Bman Zartan Join Date: March 11, 2001 Location: North Carolina USA Age: 58 Posts: 5,177	quote: Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: I am not a pacifist. I'd like to be, but I just don't have the temprament for it, and it would be a total hypocrisy for me to take up the pacifist banner. Ron, we've had this discussion before, on why I don't think the war is actually going to achieve any of the US's long term ends re eradicating terrorism, and may actually serve, in the long run, to make the situation worse. On the aiding the freedom fighters front - well, all I can say is, learning from mistakes is a great thing. Honestly, it would be in America's best interests as well as the rest of the world to have some sort of body with TEETH that would actually be mandated to work for world peace and security, rather than America taking on this global policeman role. But we've been through all that as well.... let's not go there again, please! (I warn you, I shall just go back and cut and paste my original posts. I'm a gemini, which means I don't like repeating myself... God, we've had that discussion as well...... [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img] ) I didn't mean you specifically were a pacifist, just pointing out the two ends of the spectrum. A UN with teeth would be great, we've actually agreed on that before, but unfortunately even they would have to result to violence to achieve certain ends. I won't cut and paste if you wont...lol! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] BTW, congratulation me on my 1,000th post! Six or eight weeks ago, I only had 50 after 6 months here [img]smile.gif[/img] What the heck is this avatar of mine suppose to be? __________________ [img]\"http://home.carolina.rr.com/orthanc/pics/Spinning%20Hammer%20Sig%20Pic.gif\" alt=\" - \" />

11-26-2001, 06:58 PM	#57
Silver Cheetah Fzoul Chembryl Join Date: July 26, 2001 Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK Posts: 1,781	quote: Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: I didn't mean you specifically were a pacifist, just pointing out the two ends of the spectrum. A UN with teeth would be great, we've actually agreed on that before, but unfortunately even they would have to result to violence to achieve certain ends. I won't cut and paste if you want...lol! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] BTW, congratulation me on my 1,000th post! Six or eight weeks ago, I only had 50 after 6 months here [img]smile.gif[/img] What the heck is this avatar of mine suppose to be? Congratulations....... and celebrations........ wibbly woo! Hurrah! Your avatar is the same as mine. It's an emerald dragon what looks like a load of skulls or something, dead cheery...... I've had mine for ever and ever and ever...... Looks like it's going to hang on til 1500, unless Ziroc changes the avatars again... It's enough to make a girl take to spamming...... __________________

11-26-2001, 07:30 PM	#58
Ronn_Bman Zartan Join Date: March 11, 2001 Location: North Carolina USA Age: 58 Posts: 5,177	To me, they look like green bells, turned upside down, and tilted to the left?!?!?! Do you know the link to the avatar progression chart? Ziroc posted it in a GD thread once before but I hate to go digging around if you, my knowledgible friend, can save me the trouble Oh, and your point about the "bottom" pictures and the hairy tail is kind of scary...lol. __________________ [img]\"http://home.carolina.rr.com/orthanc/pics/Spinning%20Hammer%20Sig%20Pic.gif\" alt=\" - \" />

11-26-2001, 11:45 PM	#59
Naked Wild Man Banned User Join Date: November 26, 2001 Location: The Forest Posts: 11	quote: Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: *I don't think anyone said America provided the most aid to all* the poorer nations of the world, but I'm glad to know we're number two overall!** You are joking, right? Pathetic is what it is. If America's generosity lived up to the self image of americans, America would of course be by far the biggest donator of wealth in the world, as by far the richest country. But, it isn't even the biggest total donor, much less outstripping all others by far. And comparitive generosity can only be judged in relation to what the donor can afford to give. The cold, hard facts say that far from being the generous donor nation many americans claim, when compared to other developed western nations it is among the most miserly and stingiest.

11-27-2001, 12:10 AM	#60
Cloudbringer Ironworks Moderator Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Upstate NY USA Posts: 19,737	quote: Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: To me, they look like green bells, turned upside down, and tilted to the left?!?!?! Do you know the link to the avatar progression chart? Ziroc posted it in a GD thread once before but I hate to go digging around if you, my knowledgible friend, can save me the trouble Oh, and your point about the "bottom" pictures and the hairy tail is kind of scary...lol. The are emeralds, Ronn! [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img] Cloudy [img]graemlins/stormy.gif[/img] __________________ "Don't take life for granted." Animal (may he rest in peace)

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