Aid Money - to get things into perspective - Page 5

Magness · 11-26-2001, 04:34 PM

quote:
Some would say America bombing civilians is evil. No, you say, it is necessary, a necessary evil, if you like, to combat evil, and for the greater good. Nevertheless, some will continue to say it is evil, no matter what the original provocation for the action. Basically, you are killing many innocent people along with with those who are not innocent. You see? You are using cause and effect to justify what are, if you look at them fair and square on, evil actions. And yet many are not ready to do the same, and take a good hard look at the causes of the evil wreaked by Osama bin Laden and his band of not so merry men, prefering to believe in some 'America the Beautiful, the Brave and the Generous' myth. (As I've said before, I don't wish to villify America here. Much good is also done. And there is much generousity. But for god's sake, let's open our eyes to some of the other stuff!)

S/C, There's no such think as a bomb that's so smart that it will never, ever hit only the bad guys. The fact that some innocent people can and will get caught in the middle can never be used as a reason not to do what is necessary when military force is required. The best that can be hoped for is that civilian casualities are minimized. Also remember that the enemy has made it a policy of hiding behind innocent civilians and then crying "foul" when those civilians are hit.

Accidently killing innocent civilians is not "evil". It is just that, an unfortunate accident.

Fighting a war in self-defense against world terrorism in Afghanistan is not "evil". It is an unfortunate necessity.

Barry the Sprout · 11-26-2001, 04:36 PM

It was also refferred to for quite a while as the Labour School of Economics as it has always been on the soft left... until now that it.

In a bid to get as much cash as possible it is starting to get as many overseas students in as it can. They pay 9 times more than British students to go to British universities and thus earn the Uni much more cash. So now it is full of very, very, rich people. None of whom are all that receptive to socialism.

Magness · 11-26-2001, 04:54 PM

quote:

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:

But yes, going back to evil actions that take place, and that have consequences. Obviously we have to take steps to deal with those actions, and if we can, prevent them from happening again. But I'm not one of those that thinks that violence solves all problems. All that happens is you temporarily stun the problem, which then gets up again when you're least expecting it, grabs your weapon, and beats the shit out of you with it. (Which is basically what has happened in Afghanistan.....)

This sounds a lot like "violence never solves anything".

I'd say that violence and war certainly "solved" problems of WW2 and the US Civil War. I am absolutely not advocating war as the solution to every problem. Violence (i.e.terrorist attack followed by reprisal followed by a reprisal terrorist attack) hasn't solved the Israeli-Palestinian problem. Four successive defeats of invading Arab countries by Isreal has solved the problem of invading Arab countries because Syria, Egypt, and Jordan got tired of getting their collective butts whupped.

However, I doubt that military success in Afghanistan, even if OBL is captured or killed, will end world terrorism (i.e. Muslim-Arab Terrorism). Until the middle east drags itself into the 21st century in every way (i.e. socially, economically, governmentally, and religiously), we will probably continue have this problem.

Cloudbringer · 11-26-2001, 05:32 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:

I can relate to that....

I get soooooo bored with being jumped on every time I venture to subject American (and British for that matter) motives in prosecuting this war, or methods thereof to any kind of questioning or analysis.

People taking issue with my facts/opinions is one thing - and fine. I am aware that I am not the source of all wisdom on this matter. (Yes, really...)

What does piss me off are the charges which are regularly levelled at my head of being 'anti-civilisation', 'pro-terrorist' 'anti-american' 'anti-west' 'osama -loving' &tc &tc ad nauseaum ad infinitum.

Like what do people want? For example, are we're supposed to just sit back and let a load of panic sticken politicians slap a whole load of terrorist curbing regulations in place which just happen to have huge implications for the future of the environmental and anti-globalism movements, not to mention a whole host of other things, without so much as saying boo?

I think not.

Think I'll leave it there for the time being. I can feel a rant coming on... and I don't have time... gotta go OUT into the big wide, screenless world... (although that last might be a matter of opinion....)

Uh.. if you want to do something about it.. ever thought of doing something constructive within the system.. oh.. I dunno, talking to your representatives or voting etc.. 'cuz as far as I know.. ranting on a roleplay and fantasy message board never fixed the political system of any country, at least not yet!

Sorry, I don't see you being vilified or called names anyplace, not personally, anyway. If you are, it's not appropriate to the forum and you should/can report such things.

The numbers are interesting... but then I don't take such things at face value most times. I've got this thing about numbers.. we agree to disagree.. hehe.. and I balance my checkbook occasionally.

And to those who seem to think that just because a country/people benefit from donations or aid, it's somehow not good anymore... uh hello! Aid and help are aid and help. Motivation is not the issue.. I for one, don't know too many completely altruistic people, despite what you may want to think. Just because I may give you something, knowing I get some good in return, does NOT change the fact I gave you something.

Cloudy, not in 'a mood' today

Barry the Sprout · 11-26-2001, 05:44 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Cloudbringer:

Uh.. if you want to do something about it.. ever thought of doing something constructive within the system.. oh.. I dunno, talking to your representatives or voting etc.. 'cuz as far as I know.. ranting on a roleplay and fantasy message board never fixed the political system of any country, at least not yet!

Don't know about SC but I am pretty active in left wing politics myself. But I am also pretty sure that not everyone on here agrees with us so just saying that the reason the world is like it is is because we are not trying hard enough is probably not entirely true.

Also, referring to the representatives. They have just as much a vested interest in keeping the system the way it is as anyone else in the established order. Talking to them will not do a blind bit of difference. And I could vote for another one - were it not for the interesting two party system we have.

I place no trust in my representatives whatsoever to carry out my wishes, and neither do many on the left wing.

Ronn_Bman · 11-26-2001, 05:55 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Magness:
Ronn,

In one of your latest replies to Silver Cheetah, you included a portion of S/C's comments and then immediately started into your reply (which I found interesting). Could you separate your reply from the quoted comment better? I'm having trouble determining exactly who the text belongs to ... you or S/C. Thanks...

Sorry for the confusion. I ended up quoting in parts and just used bold for the quoted remarks, but I did a little looking and fixed the problem. I believe a melding of my remarks and SC's might be very interesting and confusing reading....lol.

Cloudbringer · 11-26-2001, 06:08 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:

Don't know about SC but I am pretty active in left wing politics myself. But I am also pretty sure that not everyone on here agrees with us so just saying that the reason the world is like it is is because we are not trying hard enough is probably not entirely true.

Also, referring to the representatives. They have just as much a vested interest in keeping the system the way it is as anyone else in the established order. Talking to them will not do a blind bit of difference. And I could vote for another one - were it not for the interesting two party system we have.

I place no trust in my representatives whatsoever to carry out my wishes, and neither do many on the left wing.

Well, that is of course, your right. But frankly I can't understand why people who don't like the system blame those of us who don't DISLIKE the system for the ills of the world. I guess my opinion has always been, if you don't like it, try to change it within the system. And I know that's easier said than done, but hey, I'm also for the majority rule, so for me, things aren't as 'bad' as they may seem to someone who has views that aren't in that majority.

I dunno, I don't always take these threads so deadly seriously as some people do, mainly because I do see that it's all an intellectual debate here and not likely to actually change anyone's mind nor will 'winning' point here fix what anyone perceives as being wrong with any country.

Still, I'm pleased to meet you and pleased to see how others think about some of these topics. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Cloudy, moderate

Silver Cheetah · 11-26-2001, 06:11 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Cloudbringer:

Uh.. if you want to do something about it.. ever thought of doing something constructive within the system.. oh.. I dunno, talking to your representatives or voting etc.. 'cuz as far as I know.. ranting on a roleplay and fantasy message board never fixed the political system of any country, at least not yet!

Cloudy, why are you assuming that I DONT take constructive action within the system? You know absolutely nothing about the matter. Of course I bloody well do!!

1. I take part in Greenpeace actions at a national level. Several months ago, I was arrested for taking part in a peaceful protest against Exxon Mobile.

2. I am an active member of Greenpeace at a local level. This involves standing outside supermarkets, petrol stations come rain come shine, two or three Saturdays per month, doing a whole variety of different things. Some of the issues we campaign on include whaling, illegal logging in the amazon and other rainforests, GM food, global warming and so on. The work includes awareness raising, and also asking people to take action for change.

You said within the system, so maybe you wouldn't see those as valid. Like I give a good stuff. However, on the 'within the system' front...

1. I regularly write to my local and to national members of parliament on issues of importance (that I find important). Currently, I'm focusing on energy - as the British government is currently deciding whether to focus on revving up nuclear to meet our energy needs moving forwards, or to go with something a bit less stupidly lethal and long term polluting.

2. I write and email companies who are supplying products/engaging in activities that are anti-social/damaging to the environment/abusive to animals. (I also take part in Greenpeace actions against such companies).

3. I vote with my feet and my purse. I.e. As far as possible, I don't buy products which are produced by companies who don't give a flying ■■■■ for anything except their own profit margins. (That's most of them. Means I don't buy a lot. Fortunately, I live in a city with a strong artisan/grow your own community ethic. No accident. I chose to live here.)

3. I produce leaflets, brochures and booklets for the local Peace and Environment centre, free of charge.

4. I vote.

So no, I don't just sit here on a fantasy role playing board shouting my mouth off Cloudy. Okay?

Ronn_Bman · 11-26-2001, 06:13 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:
And yet many are not ready to do the same, and take a good hard look at the causes of the evil wreaked by Osama bin Laden and his band of not so merry men, prefering to believe in some 'America the Beautiful, the Brave and the Generous' myth. (As I've said before, I don't wish to villify America here. Much good is also done. And there is much generousity. But for god's sake, let's open our eyes to some of the other stuff!)

I know you may feel the "America the Beautiful, the Brave, and the Generous" is a myth, but not completely so. Even at that, American's as a whole don't believe we are the greatest and everyone else should bow before US in gratitude. In this forum American's, who in everyday life, complain about what is wrong with America defend her against, what they think is, a verbal attack. Whether it's intended that way or not, we get defensive. The slight admissions of generousity or helpfulness from the US are completely overpowered by the "America complaints". We do open our eyes and look at things, but when people want to shove those things down our throat - we choke on them!

Silver Cheetah · 11-26-2001, 06:19 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Cloudbringer:

Sorry, I don't see you being vilified or called names anyplace, not personally, anyway. If you are, it's not appropriate to the forum and you should/can report such things.

When the 'war' first started, there was a lot of unpleasantness on the forum, as I'm sure you well remember, and I, like everyone else who favoured a more moderate approach to curbing terrorism, was called a pro-terrorist, etc etc.

More recently, I had Yorick levelling incoherent accusations at me and the other Brits on here in a rather unpleasant thread which was eventually closed by Memnoch on his return from holiday. At the time, I excused him, due to the death of his grandfather, plus I was also very aware that he was in New York at the time of the attacks, and the two things together must have been terrifically hard to take. So please don't tell me I've never been villified on this board. It's no big deal, and my reference to it above was in passing, to Barry. I simply wished to convey to him that I understood how he felt. :sigh:

11-26-2001, 04:34 PM	#41
Magness Quintesson Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Manchester, NH, USA Posts: 1,025	quote: Some would say America bombing civilians is evil. No, you say, it is necessary, a necessary evil, if you like, to combat evil, and for the greater good. Nevertheless, some will continue to say it is evil, no matter what the original provocation for the action. Basically, you are killing many innocent people along with with those who are not innocent. You see? You are using cause and effect to justify what are, if you look at them fair and square on, evil actions. And yet many are not ready to do the same, and take a good hard look at the causes of the evil wreaked by Osama bin Laden and his band of not so merry men, prefering to believe in some 'America the Beautiful, the Brave and the Generous' myth. (As I've said before, I don't wish to villify America here. Much good is also done. And there is much generousity. But for god's sake, let's open our eyes to some of the other stuff!) S/C, There's no such think as a bomb that's so smart that it will never, ever hit only the bad guys. The fact that some innocent people can and will get caught in the middle can never be used as a reason not to do what is necessary when military force is required. The best that can be hoped for is that civilian casualities are minimized. Also remember that the enemy has made it a policy of hiding behind innocent civilians and then crying "foul" when those civilians are hit. Accidently killing innocent civilians is not "evil". It is just that, an unfortunate accident. Fighting a war in self-defense against world terrorism in Afghanistan is not "evil". It is an unfortunate necessity.

11-26-2001, 04:36 PM	#42
Barry the Sprout White Dragon Join Date: October 19, 2001 Location: York, UK. Age: 42 Posts: 1,815	It was also refferred to for quite a while as the Labour School of Economics as it has always been on the soft left... until now that it. In a bid to get as much cash as possible it is starting to get as many overseas students in as it can. They pay 9 times more than British students to go to British universities and thus earn the Uni much more cash. So now it is full of very, very, rich people. None of whom are all that receptive to socialism. __________________ [img]\"http://img1.ranchoweb.com/images/sproutman/certwist.gif\" alt=\" - \" /><br /><br /><i>\"And the angels all pallid and wan,<br />Uprising, unveiling, affirm,<br />That the play is the tragedy, man,<br />And its hero the Conquerer Worm.\"</i><br /> - Edgar Allan Poe

11-26-2001, 04:54 PM	#43
Magness Quintesson Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Manchester, NH, USA Posts: 1,025	quote: Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: But yes, going back to evil actions that take place, and that have consequences. Obviously we have to take steps to deal with those actions, and if we can, prevent them from happening again. But I'm not one of those that thinks that violence solves all problems. All that happens is you temporarily stun the problem, which then gets up again when you're least expecting it, grabs your weapon, and beats the shit out of you with it. (Which is basically what has happened in Afghanistan.....) This sounds a lot like "violence never solves anything". I'd say that violence and war certainly "solved" problems of WW2 and the US Civil War. I am absolutely not advocating war as the solution to every problem. Violence (i.e.terrorist attack followed by reprisal followed by a reprisal terrorist attack) hasn't solved the Israeli-Palestinian problem. Four successive defeats of invading Arab countries by Isreal has solved the problem of invading Arab countries because Syria, Egypt, and Jordan got tired of getting their collective butts whupped. However, I doubt that military success in Afghanistan, even if OBL is captured or killed, will end world terrorism (i.e. Muslim-Arab Terrorism). Until the middle east drags itself into the 21st century in every way (i.e. socially, economically, governmentally, and religiously), we will probably continue have this problem.

11-26-2001, 05:32 PM	#44
Cloudbringer Ironworks Moderator Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Upstate NY USA Posts: 19,737	quote: Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: I can relate to that.... I get soooooo bored with being jumped on every time I venture to subject American (and British for that matter) motives in prosecuting this war, or methods thereof to any kind of questioning or analysis. People taking issue with my facts/opinions is one thing - and fine. I am aware that I am not the source of all wisdom on this matter. (Yes, really...) What does piss me off are the charges which are regularly levelled at my head of being 'anti-civilisation', 'pro-terrorist' 'anti-american' 'anti-west' 'osama -loving' &tc &tc ad nauseaum ad infinitum. Like what do people want? For example, are we're supposed to just sit back and let a load of panic sticken politicians slap a whole load of terrorist curbing regulations in place which just happen to have huge implications for the future of the environmental and anti-globalism movements, not to mention a whole host of other things, without so much as saying boo? I think not. Think I'll leave it there for the time being. I can feel a rant coming on... and I don't have time... gotta go OUT into the big wide, screenless world... (although that last might be a matter of opinion....) Uh.. if you want to do something about it.. ever thought of doing something constructive within the system.. oh.. I dunno, talking to your representatives or voting etc.. 'cuz as far as I know.. ranting on a roleplay and fantasy message board never fixed the political system of any country, at least not yet! Sorry, I don't see you being vilified or called names anyplace, not personally, anyway. If you are, it's not appropriate to the forum and you should/can report such things. The numbers are interesting... but then I don't take such things at face value most times. I've got this thing about numbers.. we agree to disagree.. hehe.. and I balance my checkbook occasionally. And to those who seem to think that just because a country/people benefit from donations or aid, it's somehow not good anymore... uh hello! Aid and help are aid and help. Motivation is not the issue.. I for one, don't know too many completely altruistic people, despite what you may want to think. Just because I may give you something, knowing I get some good in return, does NOT change the fact I gave you something. Cloudy, not in 'a mood' today __________________ "Don't take life for granted." Animal (may he rest in peace)

11-26-2001, 05:44 PM	#45
Barry the Sprout White Dragon Join Date: October 19, 2001 Location: York, UK. Age: 42 Posts: 1,815	quote: Originally posted by Cloudbringer: Uh.. if you want to do something about it.. ever thought of doing something constructive within the system.. oh.. I dunno, talking to your representatives or voting etc.. 'cuz as far as I know.. ranting on a roleplay and fantasy message board never fixed the political system of any country, at least not yet! Don't know about SC but I am pretty active in left wing politics myself. But I am also pretty sure that not everyone on here agrees with us so just saying that the reason the world is like it is is because we are not trying hard enough is probably not entirely true. Also, referring to the representatives. They have just as much a vested interest in keeping the system the way it is as anyone else in the established order. Talking to them will not do a blind bit of difference. And I could vote for another one - were it not for the interesting two party system we have. I place no trust in my representatives whatsoever to carry out my wishes, and neither do many on the left wing. __________________ [img]\"http://img1.ranchoweb.com/images/sproutman/certwist.gif\" alt=\" - \" /><br /><br /><i>\"And the angels all pallid and wan,<br />Uprising, unveiling, affirm,<br />That the play is the tragedy, man,<br />And its hero the Conquerer Worm.\"</i><br /> - Edgar Allan Poe

11-26-2001, 05:55 PM	#46
Ronn_Bman Zartan Join Date: March 11, 2001 Location: North Carolina USA Age: 58 Posts: 5,177	quote: Originally posted by Magness: Ronn, In one of your latest replies to Silver Cheetah, you included a portion of S/C's comments and then immediately started into your reply (which I found interesting). Could you separate your reply from the quoted comment better? I'm having trouble determining exactly who the text belongs to ... you or S/C. Thanks... Sorry for the confusion. I ended up quoting in parts and just used bold for the quoted remarks, but I did a little looking and fixed the problem. I believe a melding of my remarks and SC's might be very interesting and confusing reading....lol. __________________ [img]\"http://home.carolina.rr.com/orthanc/pics/Spinning%20Hammer%20Sig%20Pic.gif\" alt=\" - \" />

11-26-2001, 06:08 PM	#47
Cloudbringer Ironworks Moderator Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Upstate NY USA Posts: 19,737	quote: Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: Don't know about SC but I am pretty active in left wing politics myself. But I am also pretty sure that not everyone on here agrees with us so just saying that the reason the world is like it is is because we are not trying hard enough is probably not entirely true. Also, referring to the representatives. They have just as much a vested interest in keeping the system the way it is as anyone else in the established order. Talking to them will not do a blind bit of difference. And I could vote for another one - were it not for the interesting two party system we have. I place no trust in my representatives whatsoever to carry out my wishes, and neither do many on the left wing. Well, that is of course, your right. But frankly I can't understand why people who don't like the system blame those of us who don't DISLIKE the system for the ills of the world. I guess my opinion has always been, if you don't like it, try to change it within the system. And I know that's easier said than done, but hey, I'm also for the majority rule, so for me, things aren't as 'bad' as they may seem to someone who has views that aren't in that majority. I dunno, I don't always take these threads so deadly seriously as some people do, mainly because I do see that it's all an intellectual debate here and not likely to actually change anyone's mind nor will 'winning' point here fix what anyone perceives as being wrong with any country. Still, I'm pleased to meet you and pleased to see how others think about some of these topics. [img]smile.gif[/img] Cloudy, moderate __________________ "Don't take life for granted." Animal (may he rest in peace)

11-26-2001, 06:11 PM	#48
Silver Cheetah Fzoul Chembryl Join Date: July 26, 2001 Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK Posts: 1,781	quote: Originally posted by Cloudbringer: Uh.. if you want to do something about it.. ever thought of doing something constructive within the system.. oh.. I dunno, talking to your representatives or voting etc.. 'cuz as far as I know.. ranting on a roleplay and fantasy message board never fixed the political system of any country, at least not yet! Cloudy, why are you assuming that I DONT take constructive action within the system? You know absolutely nothing about the matter. Of course I bloody well do!! 1. I take part in Greenpeace actions at a national level. Several months ago, I was arrested for taking part in a peaceful protest against Exxon Mobile. 2. I am an active member of Greenpeace at a local level. This involves standing outside supermarkets, petrol stations come rain come shine, two or three Saturdays per month, doing a whole variety of different things. Some of the issues we campaign on include whaling, illegal logging in the amazon and other rainforests, GM food, global warming and so on. The work includes awareness raising, and also asking people to take action for change. You said within the system, so maybe you wouldn't see those as valid. Like I give a good stuff. However, on the 'within the system' front... 1. I regularly write to my local and to national members of parliament on issues of importance (that I find important). Currently, I'm focusing on energy - as the British government is currently deciding whether to focus on revving up nuclear to meet our energy needs moving forwards, or to go with something a bit less stupidly lethal and long term polluting. 2. I write and email companies who are supplying products/engaging in activities that are anti-social/damaging to the environment/abusive to animals. (I also take part in Greenpeace actions against such companies). 3. I vote with my feet and my purse. I.e. As far as possible, I don't buy products which are produced by companies who don't give a flying ■■■■ for anything except their own profit margins. (That's most of them. Means I don't buy a lot. Fortunately, I live in a city with a strong artisan/grow your own community ethic. No accident. I chose to live here.) 3. I produce leaflets, brochures and booklets for the local Peace and Environment centre, free of charge. 4. I vote. So no, I don't just sit here on a fantasy role playing board shouting my mouth off Cloudy. Okay? __________________

11-26-2001, 06:13 PM	#49
Ronn_Bman Zartan Join Date: March 11, 2001 Location: North Carolina USA Age: 58 Posts: 5,177	quote: Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: And yet many are not ready to do the same, and take a good hard look at the causes of the evil wreaked by Osama bin Laden and his band of not so merry men, prefering to believe in some 'America the Beautiful, the Brave and the Generous' myth. (As I've said before, I don't wish to villify America here. Much good is also done. And there is much generousity. But for god's sake, let's open our eyes to some of the other stuff!) I know you may feel the "America the Beautiful, the Brave, and the Generous" is a myth, but not completely so. Even at that, American's as a whole don't believe we are the greatest and everyone else should bow before US in gratitude. In this forum American's, who in everyday life, complain about what is wrong with America defend her against, what they think is, a verbal attack. Whether it's intended that way or not, we get defensive. The slight admissions of generousity or helpfulness from the US are completely overpowered by the "America complaints". We do open our eyes and look at things, but when people want to shove those things down our throat - we choke on them! __________________ [img]\"http://home.carolina.rr.com/orthanc/pics/Spinning%20Hammer%20Sig%20Pic.gif\" alt=\" - \" />

11-26-2001, 06:19 PM	#50
Silver Cheetah Fzoul Chembryl Join Date: July 26, 2001 Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK Posts: 1,781	quote: Originally posted by Cloudbringer: Sorry, I don't see you being vilified or called names anyplace, not personally, anyway. If you are, it's not appropriate to the forum and you should/can report such things. When the 'war' first started, there was a lot of unpleasantness on the forum, as I'm sure you well remember, and I, like everyone else who favoured a more moderate approach to curbing terrorism, was called a pro-terrorist, etc etc. More recently, I had Yorick levelling incoherent accusations at me and the other Brits on here in a rather unpleasant thread which was eventually closed by Memnoch on his return from holiday. At the time, I excused him, due to the death of his grandfather, plus I was also very aware that he was in New York at the time of the attacks, and the two things together must have been terrifically hard to take. So please don't tell me I've never been villified on this board. It's no big deal, and my reference to it above was in passing, to Barry. I simply wished to convey to him that I understood how he felt. :sigh: __________________

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