Newest Hamas leader killed

[Skunk]

[quote]Originally posted by johnny:

Yeah, but they no longer succeed now, do they ? Which in return means less innocent victims, isn't that what it's all about ? [/QB]

That's the whole point Johnny - the number of successful attacks has remained THE SAME.

[johnny]

No it hasn't, it has decreased drastically. How did the number of succesfull attacks remain the same ? You saw the figures, didn't you ?

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by johnny: No it hasn't, it has decreased drastically. How did the number of succesfull attacks remain the same ? You saw the figures, didn't you ?

He means the 'reduced' figures have remained the same.

[Skunk]

The initial burst at the start of the infitada is quite normal - that's the period when the religiously motivated zealots begin their action. What you see after that is the settled down period, when the zealots are no longer carrying out the attacks but instead the desperate.

For the past year (mid-2002 onwards), numbers of successful sucides have remained static - despite an ACCELERATED building program of the curtain and VASTLY increased military activity.

If the war on the palestinians was really being won, then you would have seen a corresponding descrease in numbers from mid-2002 until now - there hasn't been any such drop. Furthermore, according to the same newspaper that your figures came from notes that:

"These Shin Bet statistics do not include shooting attacks in which assailants open fire in a city or on a settlement, with very little chance of surviving the assault. The data apply only to suicide assailants who themselves carry bombs, or operate booby-trapped vehicles. The total of 206 includes would-be assailants who were caught with bombs on their backs, just before they carried out planned attacks; the number, however, does not include terrorists who were seized in their homes or hiding places during Israel Defense Forces raids, and who were not at the time of their capture wearing explosive belts.

The Shin Bet statistics point to a major shift in the identities of suicide assailants. Prior to the current intifada, all such terrorists belonged to militant Islamic groups, mainly Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Out of 145 suicide strikers in the current intifada, 52 were Hamas men and 35 belonged to Islamic Jihad, while Fatah has sent 40 suicide strikers."

and goes on to note in a separate article over the death of Rantisi that:
Nevertheless, from the viewpoint of the public support some 1.25 million Gaza residents bestow on Hamas, not only has the movement not suffered any damage, but, to the contrary, support for it has grown...

The Gaza Strip appears therefore to be heading toward a new regime, which won't exactly be a continuation of the Palestinian Authority, but rather "an action committee under the auspices of the PA," as Mohammed Dahlan has suggested. If in previous years there was talk of Hamas joining Arafat's regime, it appears now in Gaza that the talk is more to do with the PA joining Hamas.

In any event, the Hamas way has emerged victorious: There is no political process; the armed struggle has returned; the fight is against "the Zionist entity;" and the issue of the right of return has once again been brought to the fore.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/416795.html

[ 04-20-2004, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: Skunk ]

[Timber Loftis]

Some steam always has to get out of the pressure cooker. I see it as a continuing success rather than some sort of failure to catch absolutely everything. But, you spin the numbers your way, I'll spin them mine.

[Black Baron]

Donut i suggest that you apologize. It is a very insulting and unapropriate remark.

Skunk-The quality of these suiside bombings had dropped. Hamas leaders in panic asked Hizballah and iran to help them in money, guns, and PEOPLE. (i do not know how to italic, so i use caps lock. how do i italic? tx in advance ). They are now in disarray, at least for a short while.

The war will be won due to change of tactics that was implemented relativly recently, and not from mid 2002.

Hierophant-To decide who is peaceful and who is not, among palestinians is not easy. However if we will take out their leaders, officers and field commanders that we know their names (and we do.), hamas will crumble. It will not happen in a year or two, but it will happen. IDF is patient. We will wait.

[ 04-20-2004, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: Black Baron ]

[Skunk]

Originally posted by Black Baron: Skunk-The quality of these suiside bombings had dropped. Hamas leaders in panic asked Hizballah and iran to help them in money, guns, and PEOPLE. (i do not know how to italic, so i use caps lock. how do i italic? tx in advance ). They are now in disarray, at least for a short while.

But Black Baron, as your own intelligence services are pointing out, most attacks are NOT carried out by Hamas - but by rank amateur non-alligned individuals. Anger and desparation are fueling the bulk of the attacks, not Hamas in itself.

And there is no evidence that Hizballah and Iran are supplying Hamas with arms and money - can you cite your independant evidence before leveling the accusation?

Finally, italics are achieved by placing an i in brackets thus:

code:

---

this will become italic

[/QUOTE]

[Black Baron]

The stuff about hizballah is all over our press, and hamas did not say otherwise.
As a matter of fact Rantisi himself wanted Hizballah and iran in hamas ranks, unlike yassin that wanted to keep hamas "local palestinian".
Hamas leadrs admited it themselvs (about what rantisi wanted to do).
The evidense is in the pattern of atacks and their style.
For example-an underground 100 kg anti tank mine that destroyed our tank some monthes ago is typical hizballah work. (Naturally it stopped after 2 more successes. We found a way to permament deal with such pest).


Now about solo suiciders.

Their efficiency is almost 0. They have relativly little success and if it will continue it will be no different situation that it was prior to intifada .

[ 04-20-2004, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Black Baron ]

[johnny]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: quote: Originally posted by johnny: No it hasn't, it has decreased drastically. How did the number of succesfull attacks remain the same ? You saw the figures, didn't you ?

He means the 'reduced' figures have remained the same. [/QUOTE]I'll give you that, but there are much less Israeli victims. That's what i was talking about.

[Donut]

Originally posted by Black Baron: Donut i suggest that you apologize. It is a very insulting and unapropriate remark. .

It wasn't meant as an insult Black Baron, and it wasn't meant as a joke. When you begin to speak about annihilation of a group of people my mind immediately goes to the holocaust.

Rather than make a direct connection I like to allow people to make the connection themselves. I realise that you said annihilation of terrorists but even a cursory glance through the posts on this thread show that the words "terrorist" and "palestinian" are interchangeable.

How will you know when all of the terrorists have been annihilated?