Question for the death penalty abolitionists among us.

[Melusine]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Melusine, did you see my "Two Wrongs Don't Make A Right" rebuttal? If you did, and you still feel it is wrong for the state to kill, what makes it right for the state to imprison? Both are "wrongs" for us to do to each other. And, as you mention, imprisonment may be a worse wrong. So, for you, what makes one allowable and the other not allowable?

No, I didn't, but I see your point that the state is doing a 'wrong' when it imprisons people, too. But I do believe in law and punishment, I do believe crime should be punished and I do feel the state should be the one to do so. So it's not that I don't want the state to do any kind of wrong. Law is necessary and punishment too, sadly.
But what makes it feel 'wrong' to me for a state to kill someone is that I hold human life sacred enough not to want it spilled more than we can avoid. I don't think it should be considered morally right for a state to kill someone - it's irreversible and we don't know (although some people disagree) what happens after death. Institutionalising the death penalty means to say we condone the killing. I'm not saying you can't argue about it, just that that is my conviction.

[ 11-09-2003, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: Melusine ]

[Melusine]

Originally posted by Pikachu_PM: Well what you guys said is all well in good but: I would like some more evidence of innocent people actually being executed. Now, there are a fair too many # of innocent people who are SENTENCED to death, but after appeals VERY VERY few people are actually put to death...and of those I have yet to see a case where the guy even remotely appeared to have a possability of being innocent. If you disagree please site some examples of my error...as well as some cited statistics. I could be wrong, but i don't think i am. MOre to the point, yall are missing the bigger picture...with all the other bad things in the world the death penalty seems like a silly thing to focus on. Besides, even if the innocent guy isn't put to death, he's still put in jail for a long ass time, so arguing the death penatly issue is still kinda absurd.

Firstly, don't underestimate the damage done to someone who is convicted to death row while they didn't do anything. Secondly, I did refer you to the site of Amnesty International. I trust you can also do a Google search on it. Yes, an actual execution of an innocent is rare, but it HAS happened. Even so I think it's bad enough that innocent people are convicted to death row, even if they escape execution.

And I don't think I am missing the bigger picture at all. Sheesh.
Who said I am focussing on the death penalty? Who said I don't concern myself with other bad things?
What nonsense to go "oh well there are plenty of other bad things in the world so why focus on just one?". That kind of attitude gets nothing done. When a friend falls terribly ill, loses a pet or a job or a partner, then there are still worse things in the world. Doesn't mean I am not obliged to help them and try to comfort them. I'm sure you'd hate it if something really bad happened to you and any person you'd turn to for help would go "oh well, that's kind of a silly thing to whine about isn't it, with all the other bad things going on in the world?"

[khazadman]

Well Mel, a good example of innocents being executed would be the case of Sacco and Vanzetti. Even after the real killer admitted to the crime they were still executed.

[Pikachu_PM]

Originally posted by Melusine: quote: Originally posted by Pikachu_PM: Well what you guys said is all well in good but: I would like some more evidence of innocent people actually being executed. Now, there are a fair too many # of innocent people who are SENTENCED to death, but after appeals VERY VERY few people are actually put to death...and of those I have yet to see a case where the guy even remotely appeared to have a possability of being innocent. If you disagree please site some examples of my error...as well as some cited statistics. I could be wrong, but i don't think i am. MOre to the point, yall are missing the bigger picture...with all the other bad things in the world the death penalty seems like a silly thing to focus on. Besides, even if the innocent guy isn't put to death, he's still put in jail for a long ass time, so arguing the death penatly issue is still kinda absurd.

Firstly, don't underestimate the damage done to someone who is convicted to death row while they didn't do anything. Secondly, I did refer you to the site of Amnesty International. I trust you can also do a Google search on it. Yes, an actual execution of an innocent is rare, but it HAS happened. Even so I think it's bad enough that innocent people are convicted to death row, even if they escape execution.

And I don't think I am missing the bigger picture at all. Sheesh.
Who said I am focussing on the death penalty? Who said I don't concern myself with other bad things?
What nonsense to go "oh well there are plenty of other bad things in the world so why focus on just one?". That kind of attitude gets nothing done. When a friend falls terribly ill, loses a pet or a job or a partner, then there are still worse things in the world. Doesn't mean I am not obliged to help them and try to comfort them. I'm sure you'd hate it if something really bad happened to you and any person you'd turn to for help would go "oh well, that's kind of a silly thing to whine about isn't it, with all the other bad things going on in the world?" [/QUOTE]Well, actually...if I were to get sick and be told I was to die in six months I would be very upset, and part of me would be resentful for not living a fuller life. But I would still be thankful that I had 24 years instead of only a couple. There are far more kids dying of cancer than innocent ppl being executed innocently. Further, of course I would expect my friends and family to care...I would not expect anybody else too. Same goes for innocent ppl on death row..it sucks...but so does any natural death.

You say that taking my phiosophy means nothing gets done...i say that things get done when people decide to get them done. What I'm saying is that if someone is going to decide to go out and better the world, try and fix the big things first and then get to the little things. Basically, the death penalty debate gets far more attention in the media than it deserves relative to all the other problems in the world. People care only because its in the media.

I'll be the first to admit that I am being a bit crass on this issue. Some reforms are needed in the system. However, reforming the system and abolishing the death penalty are two seperate issues.

Ultimatley, you're either out there doing something to help ppl on death row -- in which case, while I think you should focus on more pressing issues, you have my upmost respect -- or your just talking here. If you're just talking...well, what really is the point then? Simple concepts that produce positive actions are infinitly more valuale than High minded philosophies never practiced.

I volunteer at an orphange near my house and at hospital with terminally ill patients. I also organize food drives to help feed children in families who can barley afford to put shoes on their kids feet. I wish I had the time and resources to do more, but I don't...and if I did it would be to help even more kids...not to save some guy on death row who may or may not be innocent (and in all probablity isn't).

You may not agree with me, but don't talk down to me like I don't have a pair...I've seen some shit in my life that people shouldn't have to see--and consider myself lucky that i've only seen it and not experienced it. It sucks innocent ppl die on death row, its horrible in fact, but I can't help but think if all the people spending hours and hours of their time trying to forgo the execution of a guilty person because he says he has been 'saved' were to instead volunteer their time to younger people with greater needs that the world would be a better place. It's simple, cold, hard logic...in x amount of time you can help less people here or more people there--you help the more ppl. The fact that the 'fewer people' are, more likely than not, guilty murderers/rapist and the 'more people' are innocents and chilren simply serves to make the logic a little less cold.

[ 11-09-2003, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Pikachu_PM ]

[Melusine]

I'm not talking down to you and yes, I do find it crass to refer to concern about the death penalty as a silly thing and to compare innocents being executed to natural death.

You live in a first world country and try to help people who are poor. I could say that that is silly too, that you should concentrate on big things. People in third world countries have it a hell of a lot worse than even the poorest of people in the Western World.
But I'm not saying that. Firstly because I think that the poor in the first world *should* be helped, because even in the richest countries, there are horrible tales of people living on society's edge. Secondly because contrary to you I think it's fantastic if people try to make a difference, and it doesn't matter if that means they volunteer at a day-care centre (full of spoiled, well-fed western kids) or put their lives on the line providing medical care to people in Rwanda. It's the desire to make a difference, the fact that they're *thinking* about how they can help people, that matters to me. If all people had that attitude, it would help tremendously.
You consider the death penalty a small matter to concern yourself with. I don't. Many people don't. I'm an active member of Amnesty International and I just started a job trying to make more people members. One of our points of interest is the death penalty. Again you may think it immaterial, but like I said, many people might consider YOUR volunteer work unnecessary and immaterial. There are ALWAYS worse things in the world. Does that mean we should only help the one person in the whole world who has it the worst of all?
Oh, and you forget: I find it a good cause to stop death penalty because I'm against it on principle. So that means I don't care whether death row inmates are guilty or not. The fact that innocents do end up there is simply more incentive.
Bottom line is, I find it arrogant to decide that the lives of (possibly innocent) people on death row aren't important enough to worry about, and that people who do so are being silly and don't concern themselves with important things. Like I said bringing food to poor western families is silly in some people's eyes (not mine, BTW, absolutely not! - I'm just turning your reasoning around) but that doesn't mean it's not valuable work.

[Timber Loftis]

People in third world countries have it a hell of a lot worse than even the poorest of people in the Western World.

You might want to qualify this. Dubai, for instance, is a 3rd world country, but happens to float on oil, and has the world's only 7-star hotel.... for those who can afford it. It's built on a man-made island 1/4 mile off the coast, to keep the regular rabble away, of course. Maybe I'll link some of the pictures of the opulent gold-gilded spas, pools, and stairwells inside the skyscraper, all in traditional Islamic opulence style.

Just pointing out that in those 3rd world countries, things would often be a lot better if the majority of the wealth was not centered in a few. I've met people from Nigeria who own 5 Mercedes, and people from Nigeria who own basically nothing.

[Pikachu_PM]

Originally posted by Melusine: I'm not talking down to you and yes, I do find it crass to refer to concern about the death penalty as a silly thing and to compare innocents being executed to natural death. You live in a first world country and try to help people who are poor. I could say that that is silly too, that you should concentrate on big things. People in third world countries have it a hell of a lot worse than even the poorest of people in the Western World. But I'm not saying that. Firstly because I think that the poor in the first world *should* be helped, because even in the richest countries, there are horrible tales of people living on society's edge. Secondly because contrary to you I think it's fantastic if people try to make a difference, and it doesn't matter if that means they volunteer at a day-care centre (full of spoiled, well-fed western kids) or put their lives on the line providing medical care to people in Rwanda. It's the desire to make a difference, the fact that they're *thinking* about how they can help people, that matters to me. If all people had that attitude, it would help tremendously. You consider the death penalty a small matter to concern yourself with. I don't. Many people don't. I'm an active member of Amnesty International and I just started a job trying to make more people members. One of our points of interest is the death penalty. Again you may think it immaterial, but like I said, many people might consider YOUR volunteer work unnecessary and immaterial. There are ALWAYS worse things in the world. Does that mean we should only help the one person in the whole world who has it the worst of all? Oh, and you forget: I find it a good cause to stop death penalty because I'm against it on principle. So that means I don't care whether death row inmates are guilty or not. The fact that innocents do end up there is simply more incentive. Bottom line is, I find it arrogant to decide that the lives of (possibly innocent) people on death row aren't important enough to worry about, and that people who do so are being silly and don't concern themselves with important things. Like I said bringing food to poor western families is silly in some people's eyes (not mine, BTW, absolutely not! - I'm just turning your reasoning around) but that doesn't mean it's not valuable work.

1. I never once said the death penalty was a silly, immaterial, or trivial thing--please don't put words in my mouth.

2. I'm not going to get into a debate with you on on whose 'worse off' the 15 year old with terminal cancer or the innocent 40 year old exectuted on death row. Neither of us is qualified. Simply put...its sucks. Its not fair. It's just down right shitty. I'm not going to quantify suffering by saying this person has suffered x amount on a 1-10 scale and this person y amount as THAT is crass. I call them equal because they both suck, and to say one were to suck more than the other would be to make assumptions I'm not qualified to make.

3. You've got a major flaw in your argument...I CAN'T help people in third world countries without dedicating my life to it or contributing large amounts of money. I'm not willig to do either. The degree of effort between the two are unequal. What I could do, is put AS MUCH effort into helping people on death row and will achieve lesser results for fewer people.

4. I'm not arguing that innocent people on death row should not be helped, I'm arguing that the issue gets TOO MUCH attention...not that it shouldn't get ANY attention. Certain people are in a position in our culture to do MORE good for inncoent death row ppl than anything else. The average person, however, can do more good for more people (or at the very least as much good for more people) by volunteering at a local hospital than picketing a jail.

5. "THINKING" about making a difference changes nothing. Making a difference changes things. While thinking is imperitive to the process, thought without action is useless. You obviously dedicate your time to helping innocent people on death row...you've got me respect. Period.

6. It is important that people on death row are thought about. It is also important than we prioritize. You are simply against the death penalty. Thats fine, but what I DO think it is silly is worrying about some murders health while kids are starving. Innocent people on death row are another matter...and thats where prioritizing becomes important. Once again, with x amount of time I can help Y number of people or 1/2 Y number of people. The world is a horrible place my friend, and while some innocent people do get put on death row, most of them are the people who help make the world horrible in the first place. I'm going to try and solve the problems they've created for others before I decide to solve the problems they've created for themselves.

[Melusine]

Firstly, sorry, bad phrasing on my part - you didn't call the death penalty a silly thing, you called concerning yourself with it silly.

Secondly, I agree with you that action is better than thinking. I think we've both put that idea into practise. I disagree that thinking doesn't help at all - it's often the first step for people. That's why I think creating awareness of problems (ie making people think) is important as well. Even if they don't put their words into action, they create an environment where people realise what is wrong with the world, and if they donate money, that helps the people who DO spring to actions.

Thirdly, there's no flaw in my argument. I don't live in a country with a death penalty either, the countries that do are half a world away, yet I *can* concern myself with it. So could you concern yourself with getting food to third world kids. That you are unwilling to dedicate your life to that I understand, but that doesn't devaluate the argument that you COULD. Note though, that I also stated beforehand that it isn't even *my* argument - I don't think your work is useless, or that you should concern yourself with 3rd world kids instead of 1st world ones. I was just saying - as you said now - that you cannot decide for other people what is or isn't useful work, what is or isn't important. We're in agreement there. You would disagree with people telling you your volunteer work is useless and better spent on those in actual need. I disagree with you when you say concerning yourself with the death penalty is useless. NB, I never said that it's all I concern myself with, or even that it's one of the most important things I worry about. It's just one among many points on Amnesty's agenda. Personally I'm more often concerned with prisoners of conscience in dictatorial countries, with child labour and with FGM (female circumcision). But Amnesty's concern with the death penalty is my concern too.

One last thing: I think you might be projecting this topic on the American situation solely. Maybe because you live there? But when I talk about innocent people being sentenced to death, I'm also talking about people like Amina Lawal, who was sentenced to be stoned to death in Nigeria. Amnesty came into action. She is free now. I'm glad people thought she was important enough to fight for. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 11-09-2003, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: Melusine ]

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Melusine: One last thing: I think you might be projecting this topic on the American situation solely. Maybe because you live there? But when I talk about innocent people being sentenced to death, I'm also talking about people like Amina Lawal, who was sentenced to be stoned to death in Nigeria. Amnesty came into action. She is free now. I'm glad people thought she was important enough to fight for. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Of course. And amen. But, she could have been abused by a bad legal system whether or not it had the D.P. Life imprisonment for having sex is also bad, I'm sure you'd agree. Thus, it is not the D.P. that is at fault in these instances, but rather the very notion of what constitutes a "crime." The DP issues occur further down the chain, in the penalty phase of things.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Thus, it is not the D.P. that is at fault in these instances, but rather the very notion of what constitutes a "crime." The DP issues occur further down the chain, in the penalty phase of things.

wouldnt this be an argument for what pikachu is recommending? focussing on the DP is far down the line and affects so few individuals, wouldnt that time and energy be better spent further up the chain, minimising the wronged individuals making it that far down?