Contradictions in religion (spin-off from the gay marriage 2 thread)

[Yorick]

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: So I am just supposed to throw out the "All humans have 32 chromosomes" and replace that bit of scientific fact with a "Because god says so"?? I must have missed the part about the fertility clinic in the bible. Think about it logicaly for just 1 second. There has never been a single case of spontaneous pregnancy in the history of all humanity. Since the first monkey learned to walk up right all the way up untill the present time it has always taken a sperm cell and an egg cell to create a human. I just cant see how people can just disregard facts and replace them with a "God can do anything" sticker. originaly by: Yorick quote: How is Van Goughs self portrait on canvass a human? It's a painting in the image of Van Gough. Heck you would look at it and say "it's Van Gough." But it doesn't make the person Vincent Van Gough, a canvass painting, nor his self portrait, a human.

The biggest problem with this analogy is that paintings dont walk and talk , but people do. If we are made in the image of god then shouldnt we be able to do the things that god does?? We can walk ,talk, feel, think,and create. Just like god does. [/QUOTE]I don't understand you logic Hunter. You're arguing points that are not allowing for my different worldview. Our point of reference is totally different.

Let me clarify my position.

1.You cannot limit God. You cannot limit a being that creates light, thought, philosophy, mathematics, gravity, oxygen, trees, life and water.

This is my belief. That the Creator is beyind limitation. As such, using the limitations of humans to back up a point of yours is futile. It's like me using the bible to convince you of truth. Your point of reference is different.

2.Humans have a soul. Just as we are fully human physically with an eternal soul, so I believe Jesus was fully human, but with the divine soul. He was God within his own artwork.

3. Your quote here :"Think about it logicaly for just 1 second. There has never been a single case of spontaneous pregnancy in the history of all humanity." is quite odd considering THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT. It has never happened before. The very aspect that makes the situation what it it, is what you are using to suggest it didn't happen. As though the uniqueness of a situation is proof the situation could not have happened.

I wonder what would have happened to the Wright borthers if people took that mentality. "No you couldn't have flown. Thnk about it logically for a second. There has never been a single case of humans flying in all human history".

So either you believe the virgin birth or not. Either you accept the word of those of the time that she was made pregnant without intercorse, after a vision from God, and the then remarkable occurences that happened to her son, including the flight to Egypt etc. Or you don't. Simple. Believe or don't. Trying to use the actual circumstance itself as proof it couldn't happened is self imploding.

4.The painting. Try seeing the analogical aspect for a second.
An artists painting is his artwork. If he paints an image of himself in that painting, it is just that. An image, not a complete replication of himself. Now, obviously we are more than a painting, but so too is God more than creation!! Using human limitation to make a point, when we believe God is outside that is futile. So fine, can a paining walk, talk etc? No it is confined to TWO DIMENSIONS. We humans are confined to FOUR DIMENSIONS. The Christian belief is that God is OUTSIDE TIME. Outside the constraints of the fourth dimension. As he is omnipresent, and can exist as Spirit inside believers, he is not subject to the other three dimensions either.

He is not confined to the parameters of his artwork, just like a painter is not subject to the parameters of his artwork. Such is the allegorical analogy.

Hence, yes God can do anything. If he can make the rules, he can break them.

Either that or we are simply unaware of how to work within the laws he;s already set in place. Writers like Anges Sanford, believe that every "miracle" is occuring within Gods laws and frameworks, we simply don't understand how to work within those laws enough.

We believe Jesus walked on water because twelve or more eyewitnesses saw it. One of the eyewitnesses went out and walked on water as well. Albeit for a few seconds.

Do you believe that with faith you could do the same?

I do. I believe that if I had absolute certainty, and no doubt, I could walk on water. I also KNOW that I will never have such absolute faith and certainty, so it will never happen. I believe the only reason Peter walked on water for that short while, was because he had Jesus in front of him doing it. As soon as he became aware of his situation, he sank.

I believe there is more to my existence than what I can explain, than what I see and experience, and what I will ever know. I can live in a realm where some things do not make sense. I can live in a world where I do not have to fit everything into a small box of immediate human comprehension. Some things will be explained as life progresses, just as germs were discovered, and planets. Some things will never be explained.

Such is living life with an open mind, without the need to control everything around me.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by John D Harris: [QB] Since I've been gone I'll try and tackle a couple of these a night, So everybody keep checking this post for updates [img]smile.gif[/img]

John, save your time. I posted a link to a site with counters to all those. Some are essays. There are no contradictions in the bible.

Oh Timber, I said there were "copyist errors". Well at least one copyist error As it is crossreferencing itself, the apparent contradicion actually serves as a corrector to the copyist error I mentioned - which is a single stroke off a numer left off.

Like us writing 1 instead of 7.

The crossreferencing insures the accuracy of facts remain intact.

This is not a contradiction however, and certainly nothing like the theological contradictions some are seeking to read into the bible.

The old testament makes the new possible. It is not irrelevent. Without the old, the new is both unrpoven and in a sense pointless. Without Law there is no Grace. Jesus Grace exists because of Gods law.

In that sense, the edicts and everything else are imprtant.

Also, considering there is a difference between eternal salvation, and earthly consequences, it is an extremely valuable source of life enhancement solutions.

You may be forgiven for having an affair by Jesus Grace, but if the consequence is a Chile being born, Jesus Grace won't destroy the life of that Child. The consequence is still there, though the eternal guilt is not.

As such, the old testament is very valuable.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Faceman- [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] You make some excellent points in your replies to my posts. Many of the perspectives you offer make good sense. In reply I must emphasize my veiw that the contradictions that come to light do so when I look for moral guidance from the Bible like so many claim to do. When one must wonder things like "should I be for or against issues like the death penalty, abortion, gay rights, unprovoked war, womens rights, pacifistsim, ect." and hits a brick wall of messages mixed thats when I think the contradictions are most visible and need the most scrutiny. Now when many of these "contradictions" are put into a different context, they seem not to be very much contradictory at all. Similar to looking at a multi-faceted gem, when veiwed from different angles different color light is revealed.

Very wise.

[Faceman]

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: I started to post this yesterday, and then the lights went out. Damn power grid!! Anyway.... So what makes you think that Jesus could either?? At least you can see David Copperfield do it.

This is beside the point.
If Jesus IS God he CAN walk on water thus ...
If Jesus is just another illusionist like David Copperfield his laws are irrelevant and need not be discussed.
We are discussing here with the premise that god does or (my point) might exist. It would be tomfoolery to discuss the wisdom of the Bible, the nature of god and god's laws under the premise that there DEFINITELY IS NO GOD.

If your only back up is the bible then you are in a lot of trouble. My livejournal says that I am all knowing and all powerfull. That doesnt make it true. I wanna see some burning bushes and some floods!! Where is the rain of toads and the plague of locusts?? It seems to me that god has come up real short in the proof department in the last 2000 years.

This is a discussioun about the Bible for crying out loud! Therefore I am referring to the Bible. It is NOT my only source of information IRL but for a Bible debate I consider it wise to use the Bible as primary source.

I am just supposed to throw out the "All humans have 32 chromosomes" and replace that bit of scientific fact with a "Because god says so"??

Last time I checked the majority of humans had 46 (23 pairs) chromosomes.

I must have missed the part about the fertility clinic in the bible. Think about it logicaly for just 1 second. There has never been a single case of spontaneous pregnancy in the history of all humanity. Since the first monkey learned to walk up right all the way up untill the present time it has always taken a sperm cell and an egg cell to create a human. I just cant see how people can just disregard facts and replace them with a "God can do anything" sticker.

It's a "IF god exists he can do anything" sticker because that is the DEFINITION of the Christian god. You can of course argue that god does not exist or that there exists some higher being which is not omnipotent which we mistakenly interpret as an omnipotent being. But if we are having a discussion of GOD impregnating Mary anything is possible. If we say: "Mary was impregnated by some other man and just made up a funny story to calm down her fiance" we could deny virgin birth but then that other man wouldn't be god and therefore irrelevant to our theological discussion.

The biggest problem with this analogy is that paintings dont walk and talk , but people do. If we are made in the image of god then shouldnt we be able to do the things that god does?? We can walk ,talk, feel, think,and create. Just like god does.

If you know something about Plato's concept of idea and image that would probably be easier to understand but anyway.
"to be created in the image" means "to be similar in some points especially looks".
Another example: If stores sell Airguns they are often crafted "in the image" of a real gun, say an AK47. However that does not make them real guns i.e. they can't shoot live ammo. They can be loaded with magazines, have a blowback mechanism and fire at the same rate as the real thing but they CANNOT fire live rounds and therefore the AREN'T the real thing.
We humans can walk, talk, feel, think and create but if there is a god he can probably walk faster, talk in more languages, feel more sensitively, think more clearly and create more complicated things and do lots of things on top of thatin fact IF there is a GOD he can be anywhere at anytime, talk in every language, feel everything, think without error and create EVERYTHING. This is the definition of the Christian god (I'm repeating myself). If he cannot do that he is NOT the Christian god.

finally: I'm not quite sure if you are aware of the many inconsistencies in your arguing. For example you argue that Mary wasn't impregnated by god to proof that god raped her.
Also
if god=human ==> human=god ==> we are god ==> god is no better than us ==>(because by definition god is better than us) god does not exist ==> he couldn't have created us in his image ==> human is not equal to god ==> contradiction ==> IF god exists he cannot be human.

You argue that things probably don't exist or didn't exist just because YOU have not seen proof. That of course means that they did not necessarily happen but it DOES NOT deny the possibility and if people choose to believe in that possibility to improve their quality of life I don't want to stop them.

[ 08-15-2003, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Faceman ]

[Link]

OK. First off: I absolutely don't believe in God, or a divine power or heaven of some sort. I believe in evolutionary theories and that life originated that way. So sue me (no pun intended, Timber )

I thought I'd reply to your last three posts, Yorick as they do pose a couple of questions:

Originally posted by Yorick

1.You cannot limit God. You cannot limit a being that creates light, thought, philosophy, mathematics, gravity, oxygen, trees, life and water. This is my belief. That the Creator is beyind limitation. As such, using the limitations of humans to back up a point of yours is futile. It's like me using the bible to convince you of truth. Your point of reference is different.

My question is: how can you be so sure that God is limitless in what he does? Is it only your belief that tells you so, or do you have true and factual arguments for your belief?
What I think is good about your point is that you *do* state that it is your belief, contrary to other points you've made.

Originally posted by Yorick

2.Humans have a soul. Just as we are fully human physically with an eternal soul, so I believe Jesus was fully human, but with the divine soul. He was God within his own artwork.

OK, another one of your beliefs. And yet again I state the (obvious?) reply. How can you prove that humans have a soul? Just because it is believed that life does not end after death? That your soul will continue to live on eternally in His realm of Heaven?

My opinion in this matter is some that I know is shared by at least some people on Earth. With the ability to think, and to act, the humans created a problem; they started thinking about themselves, about who they were, and where they came from. Because they couldn't comprehend/believe that life was over after their deaths, they started believing in Heaven; a place where they would live on forever.
Life is, in my opinion, not something that goes on. Humans do not have a soul. We *want* to have a soul, because it would make life itself easier. The greates fear of all, for most humans, is to die, after all.


Originally posted by Yorick:

3. Your quote here :"Think about it logicaly for just 1 second. There has never been a single case of spontaneous pregnancy in the history of all humanity." is quite odd considering THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT. It has never happened before. The very aspect that makes the situation what it it, is what you are using to suggest it didn't happen. As though the uniqueness of a situation is proof the situation could not have happened.

Well, actually, the fact that a situation has happened once, and not ever again is considered 'proof' that it could not have happened. Why? Because why shouldn't someone make up a story about a supposed spontaneous pregnancy? The quote by Faceman isn't so odd, you're only turning the table on him, which is, in my opinion, not a very valid argument. It's like the following conversation:

Person 1: "I believe that...."
Person 2: "Why?"
Person 1: "Why not?"
etc.

The fact that you believe something could have happened is NOT an argument.

Furthermore I don't think you can compare the Wright brothers with something as the 'spontaneous conception' of Jesus. The point is that the 'spontaneous conception' is biologically IMPOSSIBLE (even for us now, while we are far more advanced in technology than they were back then), whilst, as the Wright brothers showed us: flying is possible, if you use the right equipment and material. Why do you think they wanted to fly? Because if birds could fly, then it should be possible for any other (conscious) creature to fly as well.

Originally posted by Yorick:

Hence, yes God can do anything. If he can make the rules, he can break them.

This is actually quite funny that you say this. As I recall God was flawless. By going against his own rules, he would make himself obsolete. Could be mistaken of course...

Such is living life with an open mind, without the need to control everything around me.

This is the most confusing point of your entire speech (including post before and after this one. You try frantically to CONVINCE us that you are right, and that you hold the truth, and in the above quote you say that you live with 'an open mind, without the need to control everything around me'.
Obviously this is not true, because otherwise you wouldn't be so frantic to tell us that we are wrong. Especially this quote of yours:

Very wise

This is kinda scary. Why is it wise? Will you smite us if we don't change our minds? Or am I just misinterpreting things?

[Faceman]

Okay let's clear something up.

I do not believe in god either. In fact I'm an agnostic.

The main point is not that god IS omnipotent, omniscient, yadayada
but that IF god exists he is omnipotent, omniscient, yadayada

Why?

Because this is the definition of god in the Bible.
So it's rather trivial: If the god from the Bible (i.e. the omnipotent, omniscient one) does exist he is omnipotent, omniscient. Duh!

Now Kant proved that god's existence or inexistence cannot be proved so I won't argue if god exists or not.

Now there is a third possibility. There is a god who is not omnipotent and omniscient and can be experienced scientifically but has just not yet been discovered by us. However here would be to argue if that still would make him a valid "god" and if yes: By what parameters (omnipotence obviously aside) does a being become a god?

[ 08-15-2003, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: Faceman ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Link: quote: Very wise

This is kinda scary. Why is it wise? Will you smite us if we don't change our minds? Or am I just misinterpreting things? [/QUOTE]I am allowed to praise another persons post. I considered his words wise and well thought out so I said so. How is there a problem?

[Chewbacca]

On the whole walk on water bit, scientists have recently constructed a small robot that can walk on water similair to the way certian bugs do. But thats besides the point.

I would rather consider any potential metaphor concerning Jesus walking on water than whether or not it is fact. Lets say the water is symbolic of emotions, sometimes calm, sometime turbulent. Lets say walking on this water is symbolic of keeping clear mind regardless of emotional state. This is my take on that as metaphor. I'll leave my two cents on the bar on my way out.

[ 08-15-2003, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

[Faceman]

And for direct reply to Link:

My opinion in this matter is some that I know is shared by at least some people on Earth. With the ability to think, and to act, the humans created a problem; they started thinking about themselves, about who they were, and where they came from. Because they couldn't comprehend/believe that life was over after their deaths, they started believing in Heaven; a place where they would live on forever. Life is, in my opinion, not something that goes on. Humans do not have a soul. We *want* to have a soul, because it would make life itself easier. The greates fear of all, for most humans, is to die, after all.

Now here is one of the central issues of modern theology. God, Heaven and souls DO exist BECAUSE humans believe in them. Therefore they exist as an abstract idea. This is what Nietsche meant by "God is dead". He is dead because people have stopped believing.
So we can either believe in god and discuss him as a fact
OR
We can acknowledge that some people believe in god and therefore discuss him as an abstract concept. In this case god is what people believe him to be. So if Christians decide to believe that god is omnipotent he IS omnipotent because he is made so by there beliefs (the only thing of which he consists).

quote: Hence, yes God can do anything. If he can make the rules, he can break them.

This is actually quite funny that you say this. As I recall God was flawless. By going against his own rules, he would make himself obsolete. Could be mistaken of course...[/QUOTE]It has been pointed out before that god does not need to obey his own rules BECAUSE he is flawless. Rules are meant to be broken - at the right moment with the right cause, ...
Because god is flawless he ALWAYS KNOWS when it is appropriate to break a rule and therefore is allowed to. Again that goes only for an omnipotent god in case he exists.

quote: Very wise

This is kinda scary. Why is it wise? Will you smite us if we don't change our minds? Or am I just misinterpreting things?[/QUOTE]Basically Chewbaccas wisdom lies in accepting that if perceived from a different point than his the points that I made may be true. This is what I applauded in my reply post because he (as do I and we all should) concedes that he may not hold the absolute truth.
Again I say: Somebody MIGHT hold the absolute truth but NOBODY can know he does because the only thing you know is that you can never be completely sure.

[ 08-15-2003, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: Faceman ]

[Faceman]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: I would rather consider any potential metaphor concerning Jesus walking on water than whether or not it is fact. Lets say the water is symbolic of emotions, sometimes calm, sometime turbulent. Lets say walking on this water is symbolic of keeping clear mind regardless of emotional state. This is my take on that as metaphor. I'll leave my two cents on the bar on my way out.

Nice interpretation.
Well the whole point wasn't about walking on water anyway but on god being able to do things humans can't (if it isn't walking on water then it's something else)