views on the thief - Page 5

Dundee Slaytern · 01-30-2003, 02:42 AM

A Fighter->Assassin dualled at level 13 can attain 5 ApR even WITHOUT the Grandmastery Patch using... Darts( or the Tuigan Bow).

"Woooo... watch me fling these babies!"

Tuigan Bow and Darts are an Assassin's best friends.

Especially when combined with their Poison Weapon ability. Use a Mage to cast Improved Haste on them, and watch stacks of Darts/Arrows disappear before your very eyes. [img]tongue.gif[/img] The no-limit ammo stacking component from the Ease of Use mod is very handy in this situation.

Baros · 01-30-2003, 04:45 AM

Apart from the poison weapon, how is this any different from any F/T or F>T? As stated elsewhere there are enough other ways to getting stacking, repeating damage (bolts/arrows of biting, poisoned daggers, asp nest etc) and poison is not the be-all and end-all of combat. (fotD: did you know you can poison with your fists?).

It's no worse than the kensai/thief, kensai/mage, Wizard Slayer/Thief, Cleric/Ranger, Blade or countless other character tyeps, all of whom seem to have perfect ways of killing just about anything. Anybody can beat a scripted opponent with anything as long as you know the correct tactics. No matter what the game says - one character can deal with every situation - at least when you know the game as well as we do.

One additional point about my game (and many others) - I've not got ease of use installed (too many of the enhancements I don't like) which means no GM patch, no multi-class GM, finite stacks of ammo (irrelevant with the ammo belt, but still...)

As it happens, before I do anything, my game requires a re-install - I think a combination of installing non-weidu mods after the weidu ones, plus messing with kit abilities has screwed something (we don't need no steenking backups).

karlosovic · 01-30-2003, 08:06 AM

I think I'm much more of a roleplay gamer, as opposed to a powergamer, but not to the analy retentive extent that some people are. I'm not above a bit of powergaming. I do whatever comes to my head to try out. If it means powergaming, so be it, but I do things for the sake of 'now that would be interesting to try'.
I certainly couldn't bothered taking the time to statistically prove which is the better bow, what kit absolutely owns over all others (and why) or any of that crap. On the other hand, I'm not going to leave a party member for dead because 'reloading a save is cheating'.
I hacked a fighter/assassin, because I was trying out 2 stronghold mods that required a fighter and thief. I also wanted to try out the assassin kit because I've never used it. I chose a halfling because I've never been one and they have good thieving skills.
When I started my first solo game, it was because I'd read so many people on here talking about soloing the game, and I wanted to see what it was like, and see if I could do it (it sounds a LOT harder than it is).

after all that, I forget what my point was going to be
I'm sure it was going to be very insightful though

[ 01-30-2003, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: karlosovic ]

Baros · 01-30-2003, 09:57 AM

First impressions of the fighter/assassin. I'm not going to play through with this character, but I'm going to see how far I get before I get bored of him.

He's a half-elf (I didn't have any good halfling portraits apart from Monty) and initial points are ** in short swords and crossbows, * in dagger and single-weapon (6 points total). I've given him the assassin abilities and removed half of his theiving skills (using SK). He's missing the bonus thac0/damage, but I won't quibble about that. He's also been buffed as if he went through BG1 (ie, lot. I want to see just how bad he could be (I've now got the grandmastery patch installed, but still not relented on multi-class GM so it won't affect him).

First off - he's a very poor thief. Starting at level 7 gives very few points and level-ups are much rarer than a single class thief. It's going to be a long time before he can become the equal of even a low level regular thief.

Secondly - he's a pretty good fighter (in theory, he's not actually had a combat yet). The additional attacks and better thac0 from the fighter look excellent compared to a single class thief. The additional HP look amazing.

As a solo character he looks like he'll have potential. With no XPcap he is going to get immensly powerful, but I suspect that getting there will be interesting.

Dundee Slaytern · 01-30-2003, 11:20 AM

The other benefit that Assassins have over the other Thief variants, is its' x7 Backstab Modifier. Now... I know some will complain that most Bosses are immuned to backstabs, but honestly, that is where Spike Traps( or even normal traps) come in.

[img]tongue.gif[/img]

Do not be deterred by the less than usual amount of Thieving Points. Remember that even Imoen( and to a certain degree, Nalia) can become a proficient Thief in the game simply because there are so many items in the game that boost Thieving Skills and alternatives.

Low Stealth average? Potions of Invisibility, Ring of Invisibility will serve you well here, not to mention Nightshade Armour and/or Boots of Stealth. Need to Lockpick? Get the Ring of Lockpicks for free from the Shadow Thieves' Guild. Traps? Mercykiller Ring. Detect/Disarm Traps? Ring of Danger Sense from the Planar Sphere.

The Assassin... truth be told, has no disadvantage at all, and was the first Thief variant to successfully solo SoA-ToB; and was in fact, the 3rd favourite character-type to solo with, after the Sorcerer and Kensai-Mage.

[ 01-30-2003, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

Baros · 01-30-2003, 12:10 PM

Dundee, don't get me wrong - I'm not expecting soloing with this guy to be tough. My point was that a level 10 assassin gets the same amount of thieving points as approx a level 6 thief. In a party game this would be no disadvantage, but as solo where you need to spread the points this *will* hurt at low levels. Added to the slower level ups then thieving is going to remain a problem for him for a while. Invisibility potions (or the rings) are not a long term substitute for Hiding.

I've soloed with Assassins before and it's not tough (but then no solo really is) so it has to be about how much fun you can have with it. Single class thieves level up waay too quickly on solo (have you seen how much XP is needed to go from level 39 to 40?) which took a lot of the fun out of it. I'm giving that another go though - a few mods should extend the challenge and may keep me interested past chapter 3.

This multi-class kit thing is more out of interest to see how it changes the dynamics of the game - my verdict on this particular combo is "not much"

Butterfingers · 01-30-2003, 12:23 PM

Well, if you are going to hack a character for solo play, why not shoot for the Cheese Award?

Kensai Assassin Sorcerer. And yes, this has been done, somebody on the Gamebanshee forums did it.

Baros · 01-30-2003, 12:41 PM

And what would that achieve?

Note that I'm hacking a character for solo play to test it out and see how it works. Note also that, in my opinion, it's no better than a regular fighter/thief and I see a big disadvantage in the number of skill points (due largely to the way I want to play the character).

If I wanted an omnipotent character I could easily hack one. All bhaal-powers, all abilities, all HLAs, 25 in all stats, 100% resistance to everything. I could also have all the best items, ready made on the table in the dungeon. What would be the point?

SixOfSpades · 01-30-2003, 05:32 PM

Personally, I feel that in Solo games, a small amount of hacking is acceptable, such as hacking a kit for your Multiclassed character. I did this myself once: When I made the Thief with whom I was going to Solo through BG1, I went to Arundor's Abode and downloaded him The Mask of Shadows: A Helmet that was only wearable by true-class Thieves, which granted +1 to DEX, a -1 AC bonus, and could cast Knock 3x per day. I considered that perfectly justified, considering it was Me against The World.

Now, a Kensai/Assassin/Sorcerer would just be ridiculous. (Although I did indulge in some mental powergaming last night and imagined the potential of a Multiclassed Kensai/Swashbuckler: Your Full Plate will stack with your Kensai AC bonus and your Swashbuckler AC bonus, and the THAC0 bonuses from your kits should stack as well. Not as many hitpoints as a straight Warrior, of course, but as soon as you walk into a room, people die. Not bad, says I.....)

karlosovic · 01-31-2003, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Butterfingers:
Well, if you are going to hack a character for solo play, why not shoot for the Cheese Award?

Kensai Assassin Sorcerer. And yes, this has been done, somebody on the Gamebanshee forums did it.

because I don't want cheese, I want an assassin that will also fit the Nalia mod (Ie. must be of a warrior class)
not all hacking is about being a snivelling cheater
read my post above this one

Edit: also, I'm not soloing this character. It was going to be just me, Nalia and Minsc (the needed characters for the Nalia mod apparently), but it has slowly become a full party of 6. I just prefer as many characters as I can have, it's more interesting

[ 01-31-2003, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: karlosovic ]

01-30-2003, 08:06 AM	#43
karlosovic Drizzt Do'Urden Join Date: December 1, 2002 Location: Newcastle, Australia Age: 47 Posts: 636	I think I'm much more of a roleplay gamer, as opposed to a powergamer, but not to the analy retentive extent that some people are. I'm not above a bit of powergaming. I do whatever comes to my head to try out. If it means powergaming, so be it, but I do things for the sake of 'now that would be interesting to try'. I certainly couldn't bothered taking the time to statistically prove which is the better bow, what kit absolutely owns over all others (and why) or any of that crap. On the other hand, I'm not going to leave a party member for dead because 'reloading a save is cheating'. I hacked a fighter/assassin, because I was trying out 2 stronghold mods that required a fighter and thief. I also wanted to try out the assassin kit because I've never used it. I chose a halfling because I've never been one and they have good thieving skills. When I started my first solo game, it was because I'd read so many people on here talking about soloing the game, and I wanted to see what it was like, and see if I could do it (it sounds a LOT harder than it is). after all that, I forget what my point was going to be I'm sure it was going to be very insightful though [ 01-30-2003, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: karlosovic ] __________________ Sunglasses of Coolness +2<br /><br />Cernd: \"It is with great pride and pleasure that I accept this Most Valuable Player award....\"<br />(from the genius of Six of Spades)

01-30-2003, 05:32 PM	#49
SixOfSpades Dracolisk Join Date: September 16, 2001 Location: Bellingham, WA, USA Age: 48 Posts: 6,901	Personally, I feel that in Solo games, a small amount of hacking is acceptable, such as hacking a kit for your Multiclassed character. I did this myself once: When I made the Thief with whom I was going to Solo through BG1, I went to Arundor's Abode and downloaded him The Mask of Shadows: A Helmet that was only wearable by true-class Thieves, which granted +1 to DEX, a -1 AC bonus, and could cast Knock 3x per day. I considered that perfectly justified, considering it was Me against The World. Now, a Kensai/Assassin/Sorcerer would just be ridiculous. (Although I did indulge in some mental powergaming last night and imagined the potential of a Multiclassed Kensai/Swashbuckler: Your Full Plate will stack with your Kensai AC bonus and your Swashbuckler AC bonus, and the THAC0 bonuses from your kits should stack as well. Not as many hitpoints as a straight Warrior, of course, but as soon as you walk into a room, people die. Not bad, says I.....) __________________ Volothamp's Comeuppance Everything you ever needed to know about the entire Baldur's Gate series......except spoilers.

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01-30-2003, 02:42 AM	#41
Dundee Slaytern Ironworks Moderator Join Date: June 10, 2001 Location: Pasir Ris, Singapore Age: 42 Posts: 11,063	A Fighter->Assassin dualled at level 13 can attain 5 ApR even WITHOUT the Grandmastery Patch using... Darts( or the Tuigan Bow). "Woooo... watch me fling these babies!" Tuigan Bow and Darts are an Assassin's best friends. Especially when combined with their Poison Weapon ability. Use a Mage to cast Improved Haste on them, and watch stacks of Darts/Arrows disappear before your very eyes. [img]tongue.gif[/img] The no-limit ammo stacking component from the Ease of Use mod is very handy in this situation.

01-30-2003, 04:45 AM	#42
Baros Manshoon Join Date: January 3, 2003 Location: Leeds, UK Age: 49 Posts: 171	Apart from the poison weapon, how is this any different from any F/T or F>T? As stated elsewhere there are enough other ways to getting stacking, repeating damage (bolts/arrows of biting, poisoned daggers, asp nest etc) and poison is not the be-all and end-all of combat. (fotD: did you know you can poison with your fists?). It's no worse than the kensai/thief, kensai/mage, Wizard Slayer/Thief, Cleric/Ranger, Blade or countless other character tyeps, all of whom seem to have perfect ways of killing just about anything. Anybody can beat a scripted opponent with anything as long as you know the correct tactics. No matter what the game says - one character can deal with every situation - at least when you know the game as well as we do. One additional point about my game (and many others) - I've not got ease of use installed (too many of the enhancements I don't like) which means no GM patch, no multi-class GM, finite stacks of ammo (irrelevant with the ammo belt, but still...) As it happens, before I do anything, my game requires a re-install - I think a combination of installing non-weidu mods after the weidu ones, plus messing with kit abilities has screwed something (we don't need no steenking backups).

01-30-2003, 09:57 AM	#44
Baros Manshoon Join Date: January 3, 2003 Location: Leeds, UK Age: 49 Posts: 171	First impressions of the fighter/assassin. I'm not going to play through with this character, but I'm going to see how far I get before I get bored of him. He's a half-elf (I didn't have any good halfling portraits apart from Monty) and initial points are ** in short swords and crossbows, * in dagger and single-weapon (6 points total). I've given him the assassin abilities and removed half of his theiving skills (using SK). He's missing the bonus thac0/damage, but I won't quibble about that. He's also been buffed as if he went through BG1 (ie, lot. I want to see just how bad he could be (I've now got the grandmastery patch installed, but still not relented on multi-class GM so it won't affect him). First off - he's a very poor thief. Starting at level 7 gives very few points and level-ups are much rarer than a single class thief. It's going to be a long time before he can become the equal of even a low level regular thief. Secondly - he's a pretty good fighter (in theory, he's not actually had a combat yet). The additional attacks and better thac0 from the fighter look excellent compared to a single class thief. The additional HP look amazing. As a solo character he looks like he'll have potential. With no XPcap he is going to get immensly powerful, but I suspect that getting there will be interesting.

01-30-2003, 11:20 AM	#45
Dundee Slaytern Ironworks Moderator Join Date: June 10, 2001 Location: Pasir Ris, Singapore Age: 42 Posts: 11,063	The other benefit that Assassins have over the other Thief variants, is its' x7 Backstab Modifier. Now... I know some will complain that most Bosses are immuned to backstabs, but honestly, that is where Spike Traps( or even normal traps) come in. [img]tongue.gif[/img] Do not be deterred by the less than usual amount of Thieving Points. Remember that even Imoen( and to a certain degree, Nalia) can become a proficient Thief in the game simply because there are so many items in the game that boost Thieving Skills and alternatives. Low Stealth average? Potions of Invisibility, Ring of Invisibility will serve you well here, not to mention Nightshade Armour and/or Boots of Stealth. Need to Lockpick? Get the Ring of Lockpicks for free from the Shadow Thieves' Guild. Traps? Mercykiller Ring. Detect/Disarm Traps? Ring of Danger Sense from the Planar Sphere. The Assassin... truth be told, has no disadvantage at all, and was the first Thief variant to successfully solo SoA-ToB; and was in fact, the 3rd favourite character-type to solo with, after the Sorcerer and Kensai-Mage. [ 01-30-2003, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

01-30-2003, 12:10 PM	#46
Baros Manshoon Join Date: January 3, 2003 Location: Leeds, UK Age: 49 Posts: 171	Dundee, don't get me wrong - I'm not expecting soloing with this guy to be tough. My point was that a level 10 assassin gets the same amount of thieving points as approx a level 6 thief. In a party game this would be no disadvantage, but as solo where you need to spread the points this will hurt at low levels. Added to the slower level ups then thieving is going to remain a problem for him for a while. Invisibility potions (or the rings) are not a long term substitute for Hiding. I've soloed with Assassins before and it's not tough (but then no solo really is) so it has to be about how much fun you can have with it. Single class thieves level up waay too quickly on solo (have you seen how much XP is needed to go from level 39 to 40?) which took a lot of the fun out of it. I'm giving that another go though - a few mods should extend the challenge and may keep me interested past chapter 3. This multi-class kit thing is more out of interest to see how it changes the dynamics of the game - my verdict on this particular combo is "not much"

01-30-2003, 12:23 PM	#47
Butterfingers Drizzt Do'Urden Join Date: November 30, 2002 Location: Five Flagons Inn Posts: 633	Well, if you are going to hack a character for solo play, why not shoot for the Cheese Award? Kensai Assassin Sorcerer. And yes, this has been done, somebody on the Gamebanshee forums did it.

01-30-2003, 12:41 PM	#48
Baros Manshoon Join Date: January 3, 2003 Location: Leeds, UK Age: 49 Posts: 171	And what would that achieve? Note that I'm hacking a character for solo play to test it out and see how it works. Note also that, in my opinion, it's no better than a regular fighter/thief and I see a big disadvantage in the number of skill points (due largely to the way I want to play the character). If I wanted an omnipotent character I could easily hack one. All bhaal-powers, all abilities, all HLAs, 25 in all stats, 100% resistance to everything. I could also have all the best items, ready made on the table in the dungeon. What would be the point?

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