Aid Money - to get things into perspective

[Magness]

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Mangass? Aha, an honest to goodness Freudian slip. :Cheetah strolls off, dead pleased with self, and lashing tail.... :

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Yeah, yeah... cute.

Just watch out for the rocking chairs...

S/C, I'll try to put together a decent reply for your previous queries a little later. It's gonna take a little thought.

[Silver Cheetah]

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Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:
[b]

Keep in mind an "informed world view similar to yours" isn't any less biased. You think it's right and more of a "world view" for the same reasons. Is it a truly informed world view, or do you believe it a world view because you think yours are world views, and it reflects your thoughts? Everyone's opinions color their perception.

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Well, obviously. Er, isn't that what I said?

I said '... reporting BIAS/views expressed...

Everyone has a world view. We are all the centre of our own little universe, which we perceive according to the beliefs we have and the experiences we have undergone. A point of view is always, necessarily, subjective. Mine no less than anyone else's. And like everyone else, I think I'm right. Doesn't mean I am. You think you're right. Doesn't mean you are. And so on.

Blimey Ron, you must think I'm a right dozy cow!!

[Ronn_Bman]

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Originally posted by Silver Cheeta:

When I say good/evil crap – I’m referring to a tendency that I’ve seen far too much of lately, (both on the forum and off it) to categorise actions/people as ‘evil’, and draw a line under that definition which may not be questioned. Full stop, end of story, end of discussion. No questions, no looking at cause and effect...

As I have said many many many times on this forum, people do not come out of their mother’s womb with ‘evil’ written in big letters on their foreheads. If a person or group of people resort to a course of action that is foul and disgusting in the extreme, it is worth while examining the background to that course of action. (And no, I am not excusing the perpetrators by saying that. Just saying that we might learn from what has happened, with a view to doing better in the future.)

That is not to say that I do not believe that actions have consequences. Of course they do. However, a little more understanding on the part of the West, and America in particular, as to just WHY the anti-Western feeling in various parts of the world – I am not just referring to the Middle East here..... would be no bad thing. Dismissing people and events as ‘evil’ is simplistic and discourages and stifles exploration and discussion around the issues raised by the events of September 11th. I’m not going to go into a full blown discussion yet again on the events of 9/11, if you don’t mind, because I’ve said everything I have to say on the subject at least 20 times, and really don’t want to go into it all again. Read some of the earlier threads in this forum, should you be at all interested in my opinion/views on these matters.....

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But somethings are evil, no matter what the reason behind it. Just because we shouldn't close the door on discussion and research into something vile doesn't mean we can't label it evil. Labeling something, doesn't mean the end of the story or the choice of a simplistic point of view. There are those who say, "bomb them all to hell." That is a simplistic use, but I'm looking at the entire problem, and I still see those who purposely target innocents as evil even though I'm not the "bomb them all the hell type". I'm pro-war, but not uninformed. I believe this is part of the problem with communication. Seeing evil as an all consuming reasoning from both sides.

I don't believe anyone comes from the womb evil, but some people do become evil, for whatever reason. Everyone has a reason for everything they do in life, but all of them aren't valid.(not implying you think the terrorist have valid reasons for September 11th)

You have to deal with the problem itself before you can deal with the causes. Usually we wait too long to deal with a problem, but once you decide to deal with it or are forced to deal with it, you still have to address the immediate problem/threat first.

[Ronn_Bman]

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Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:


Well, obviously. Er, isn't that what I said?

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Sorry, I just like the look of my own typing...lol. Nervous chatter because I'm afraid I'll be left out of the picture sharing [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Magness]

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Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:

So, whilst it's great that America gave this aid, personally, I think it is the least they can do. As far as I know, the US just pulled out of Afghanistan, leaving fundamentalists in power and a god awful mess. A helping hand is kind of what you'd expect from the richest nation on earth, which also happens to be a democracy that believes in freedom for its people, even if that freedom does often come at other people's expense......

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I'll agree with you that the US pull out from Afghanistan in the late 80's was a mistake. The best reason to send "aid" to Afghanistan is for American self-interest. A more moderate and modern Afghanistan that is at least fairly friendly to the West is certainly more in the US's self-interest than a Taliban-led Afghanistan.

Next, as a citizen of "the richest nation on earth", I do not feel any particular responsibility to help the people of Afghanistan. This sounds a lot like noblesse oblige or some sort of progressive altruism (i.e. the more you have, the more you should give) BS. True altruism is not related to the size of your (or your nation's) wallet.

[Barry the Sprout]

*Dadadada DA DA!!!!*

Another English leftie to save the day!

Now I just have to think of something to say.

Magness - either I am part of the problem or part of the solution seems to be the gist of it so far. Well I have to say that what is happening now is no solution in my opinion and the US and UK caused the problem in the first place. We can't just march into someones country and stifle debate by comparing protesters to mass murderers! I am not Osama Bin Laden and have no wish to kill any people at all.

That is the point.

I do not support his actions, neither do I support killing him without a trial, or bombing the country he is living in at present. In fact the newspaper I have just finished reading and is sat in front of me has a headline "From horror in the US to devestating war on Afghanistan" followed by "Solidarity with the victims of terror".

As for your insults of drippy liberals/socialists/communists I am quite prepared for anything I write to be met with a knee herk refutation. Though, as SC says I feel the need to point out that there aren't that many old school socialists around any more. We are a very different breed to the expectations of many on the right. All right, so I am a long haired student at the LSE... but there aren't that many of us! We do have brains and are not just idiots brainwashed by our scheming leaders. In my hall of Residence I am known as "Commie Mike" but I have not lost an argument on Communism vs Capitalism yet. I would love to take you on some time.

(I should point out that I haven't converted anyone either - they usually just sneer at me a bit then walk away when they realise they are losing)

[Magness]

Ronn,

In one of your latest replies to Silver Cheetah, you included a portion of S/C's comments and then immediately started into your reply (which I found interesting). Could you separate your reply from the quoted comment better? I'm having trouble determining exactly who the text belongs to ... you or S/C. Thanks...

[Magness]

Barry the Sprout...

What's LSE?

A school from what I can gleen from what I've read. Just honest curiousity.

[Silver Cheetah]

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Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:
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But somethings are evil, no matter what the reason behind it. Just because we shouldn't close the door on discussion and research into something vile doesn't mean we can't label it evil. Labeling something, doesn't mean the end of the story. You have to deal with the problem itself before you can deal with the causes.

I don't believe anyone comes from the womb evil, but some people do become evil, for whatever reason. Everyone has a reason for everything they do in life, but all of them aren't valid.

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I see your point entirely, and do agree with you to a certain extent.

However.

Some would say America bombing civilians is evil. No, you say, it is necessary, a necessary evil, if you like, to combat evil, and for the greater good. Nevertheless, some will continue to say it is evil, no matter what the original provocation for the action. Basically, you are killing many innocent people along with with those who are not innocent. You see? You are using cause and effect to justify what are, if you look at them fair and square on, evil actions. And yet many are not ready to do the same, and take a good hard look at the causes of the evil wreaked by Osama bin Laden and his band of not so merry men, prefering to believe in some 'America the Beautiful, the Brave and the Generous' myth. (As I've said before, I don't wish to villify America here. Much good is also done. And there is much generousity. But for god's sake, let's open our eyes to some of the other stuff!)

I don't believe in 'evil' people.. (although there is a category of hugely unfortunate people who were born without the facility to feel any sort of empathy or positive connection with other humans/life forms whatever, and as a result can commit the most horrendous atrocities against others. I believe the label is psychotic. I don't know enough about this to discuss knowledgeably however, - the views of anyone who does would be welcome - preferably a professional rather than someone who fancies themselves an expert on matters of the mind......

As I was saying, I don't believe in 'evil' people. Evil actions quite obviously exist, we see evidence of them every day of our lives, most often in the media rather than first hand, although that very much depends on what one's job is... People do evil things, granted. The people who do those things are always damaged, always full of self hatred, often of despair and anger, and they turn those emotions outwards, into action in the world, rather than inward upon themselves. Suicide or murder? Abuse of self or abuse of others? It depends on the person. Everyone is different. And before anyone starts off on the old cliche that many people undergo horrors and yet turn out fine, decent human beings, yes, I know. I (hope) I am one of those people. I have met many others. And I have met many who have gone the other way. Some people are less sensitive, stronger, more resilient, more intelligent, luckier in the people they meet along the way, luckier in the opportunities that come their way.

But yes, going back to evil actions that take place, and that have consequences. Obviously we have to take steps to deal with those actions, and if we can, prevent them from happening again. But I'm not one of those that thinks that violence solves all problems. All that happens is you temporarily stun the problem, which then gets up again when you're least expecting it, grabs your weapon, and beats the shit out of you with it. (Which is basically what has happened in Afghanistan.....)

[Silver Cheetah]

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Originally posted by Magness:
Barry the Sprout...

What's LSE?

A school from what I can gleen from what I've read. Just honest curiousity.

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London School of Economics. Lot of the people who staff the big London City banks come from there......

Also known as Long Slow Ecstasy, due to the generous and expansive nature of the lecturers.... [img]tongue.gif[/img]