Wow, i had to change name...:(

[Legolas]

I find that in many cases, overactive policing by GMs hurts the fun of gaming more than the odd troublemaking player does. In Neverwinter Nights (free, and not quite as massive), GMs do a much better job when they focus on enriching the gaming experience rather than questioning anything that seems slightly off to them. That said, they are essential for removing said bothersome players when there's an obvious need for it, but you can't catch something like that in words and you can't restrict 99% of the players too much just to keep the small minority at bay.

The same holds true for the naming system. Some names are clearly off and others plainly inappropriate. That shouldn't mean I couldn't name my character Johnny (The Shining), Aaron (biblical), Jin (Tekken) or Michael (singer), especially if it was never my intention to copy them or if I'd never even heard of the name being used in a 'well known' setting.

Back to NWN, it's a game with many different worlds and each has its own set of rules. You'll see that players find a place and ruleset they're happy with, and stick around there. As a result each world has its own community with its own view on what is right and wrong.
More than GMs, the community does the policing by teaching those who don't quite fit in how to play in a manner befitting the place, or if they seem hopeless cases, then by letting them know they are unwelcome and better off going someplace else. The reason being, those people found a place they are happy with. They're not about to let it be spoiled by others. And I think this could apply on a larger scale as well.
The trouble there is that you don't usually play MMORPGs together. You play them alone, and encounter lots of strangers along the way. You don't feel as strongly that you are with a group of others who are ready to back you when you remark to someone on their inappropriate behaviour. Keeping silent, everyone's left to their own devices and trouble starts. No wonder you'd need harsh GMs to keep peace then.

The same would apply to Guild Wars. Depending on how strong the community is there may or may not be trouble. And I agree with Link, there's no telling how that will develop until it's actually in use.

[Luvian]

I espect it to get a community similar to the battle.net Diablo 2 community.

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally posted by Link: Well now you're making it an entirely different argument altogether. Instead of sticking to the naming system alone, you got things like trolls, 1337-speaking kids, active online modding in the game etc. involved. That was not my point; my point was that the naming system in itself isn't a very strong argument. That it may be related to other, potentially strong arguments is a different discussion. I can understand that you have a fear of how Guild Wars will work out, but I'm not that convinced by your arguments, to be quite honest. Mind you, I haven't played a MMORPG ever -- and at the moment I cannot spare any time and money to change that situation -- but I consider myself reasonably balanced when it comes to an opinion about the genre [reading reviews, listening to arguments, viewing screenshots and movies etc.]. Guild Wars, in my eyes, is a very promising project, a project which makes me wonder how they will deal with things without having the monthly fee. The one side of me warns me for it, for the same reasons you mentioned, but the other side of me tells me that any MMORPG, or MMOG for that matter, has its problems with hackers, PK-ing. Popularity brings problems, regardless of subscription fees. It's all up to the game developers to devise a system to filter out those people, and if Guild Wars can do that without a subscription fee, then kudo's to them. I think it would be rather unfair to judge Guild Wars before it's actual release. Just as it's unfair to judge an existing game for lacking certain newly developed elements.

Then you ministerpreted my post [img]smile.gif[/img] . The argument I was making was about the "different discussion". The contrast between paying to play versus free games. The subject touched on was the naming policy, my post was addressing your comment but then expanding to address the above arguments also (that in free games character names are lawless and 'unchallenged' but with a downside, no enforced law at all) As for the naming system alone, well I have already put forward the main reason: copywright infringement. Marvel is bringing NCsoft (the makers of City of Heroes) to court beacause of their lax attitude to CWed names and costume-design in their game. If that didn't tell every MMO to further tighten their naming policy I don't know what did.

I mean this with all due respect. When you tell me you're not that convinced by my arguments but then say that you've never "played a MMORPG ever" something doesn't add up. Really I don't think one can have a valid perspective on the issue without at least being part of the MMO experience once thus rendering you a viable judge of both PTP and free online games. Reviews and opinions mean little if you have no first-hand experience to draw from in order to make a comparison.

I never said that there aren't still idiots and griefers in a PTP MMO but trust me, if and when you do try one, you will certainly notice a difference. Again, it serves to screen out the serious gamers from the troublemakers. There are GM's there to report them to also and since you pay for their service they can quickly be banned/curtailed. See, you pay for a desirable amount of control too.

I haven't really judged Guild Wars itself before it's release, but rather all free online games. Yes, it's sad but I played free for years with bad experiences (insisted I'd never pay some company on a monhtly basis to play games) but after moving up I never looked back and can safely say my gaming experience has greatly improved in this environment.

[Legolas]

Originally posted by SpiritWarrior: I never said that there aren't still idiots and griefers in a PTP MMO but trust me, if and when you do try one, you will certainly notice a difference. Again, it serves to screen out the serious gamers from the troublemakers. There are GM's there to report them to also and since you pay for their service they can quickly be banned/curtailed. See, you pay for a desirable amount of control too. I haven't really judged Guild Wars itself before it's release, but rather all free online games. Yes, it's sad but I played free for years with bad experiences (insisted I'd never pay some company on a monhtly basis to play games) but after moving up I never looked back and can safely say my gaming experience has greatly improved in this environment.

I've already said this, but I'll say it again. GMs aren't around only in PTP games. Troublemakers can be (and are) banned as swiftly by people not being paid for their services too. It's perfectly possible to play for free without too many bad experiences. Certainly companies can offer years of community support without requiring monthly donations, too.
Granted, chances of the above are better in a PTP setting. It all depends on how much effort you're willing to spend on searching around vs. money you're willing to pay.

I'm happy not paying monthly fees for my RP, and it's nice to hear you're pleased with your own approach.

[Luvian]

Originally posted by Legolas: quote: Originally posted by SpiritWarrior: I never said that there aren't still idiots and griefers in a PTP MMO but trust me, if and when you do try one, you will certainly notice a difference. Again, it serves to screen out the serious gamers from the troublemakers. There are GM's there to report them to also and since you pay for their service they can quickly be banned/curtailed. See, you pay for a desirable amount of control too. I haven't really judged Guild Wars itself before it's release, but rather all free online games. Yes, it's sad but I played free for years with bad experiences (insisted I'd never pay some company on a monhtly basis to play games) but after moving up I never looked back and can safely say my gaming experience has greatly improved in this environment.

I've already said this, but I'll say it again. GMs aren't around only in PTP games. Troublemakers can be (and are) banned as swiftly by people not being paid for their services too. It's perfectly possible to play for free without too many bad experiences. Certainly companies can offer years of community support without requiring monthly donations, too.
Granted, chances of the above are better in a PTP setting. It all depends on how much effort you're willing to spend on searching around vs. money you're willing to pay.

I'm happy not paying monthly fees for my RP, and it's nice to hear you're pleased with your own approach. [/QUOTE]Diablo 2 has no GM at all, and not even an ignore system.

Neverwinter Night has no central server. There are no GM, just some players DMing their modules.

What free online game has GM available on call 24/7 to take care of problems?

[ 03-06-2005, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: Luvian ]

[SpiritWarrior]

Just as a side, NWN's was a much-loved game of mine. But its lawless hack-filled public servers were my main reason for packing it in and moving on to PTP. Never again will I play a game that can potentially be ran (DMed) by a 14-year old child who decides "j00 haXord" or "J00 sux0rs" and boots, bans, kills, abuses you on a whim. There was a mention of power-tripping GM's. If you want them go to the public servers on NWN's for a prime example as these people don't get paid for it, own the module and server and basically abide by noone elses rules but their own.

Now now, don't get me wrong I can hear you NWN's fans screaming. I will add that the above are worst-case scenarios. There are defo. some nice servers out there, but it's just with all the BS one can become jaded during the search for them. The game itself is not flawed, but the lack of rules and official policing (like Luvian said, there is no central server) make for this kind of potential. Has happend me lots, on many servers in many sections (from action to RP to PVP to Social). This game I would now only play privately with some friends as really the disclaiming "Online experience may differ" does no justice to it at all.

[ 03-06-2005, 05:13 AM: Message edited by: SpiritWarrior ]

[Legolas]

I find it is in fact the lack of central GMs and the fact that anyone can start their own server that makes it possible to find a proper world.
A DM doing his worst to you doesn't keep you from logging off and then going someplace where that individual doesn't have the ability to bully others. While the lack of rules and official policing leaves potential for those kinds of situation, it also leaves potential for the opposite. Again, a matter of searching around.
For me the lawless hack-filled public servers were a good reason to play Servervault games (contrary to Localvault, characters start at level 1 and with standard equipment here as opposed to being able to import any item or character they can think to make into the game), and to try a few other places. These days scripting's become familiar enough that LV servers can be restricted just the same, and many of the obvious hacks have been patched. I'm also well pleased with the official support it's still receiving to this day.

Like I said though, NWN's perhaps not quite as massive as WoW and similar MMORPGs, so I realise it's not entirely similar.

As for Diablo 1 and 2, I have never once seen anyone there even trying to act in character. The only roleplay aspect is character advancement, but there doesn't seem to be a roleplay reason behind the choices made. It's all about which combinations are most powerful (and how many people you can kill with it). Perhaps it's due to the linear nature of the game, with its pre-set storyline on all three levels of play. Maybe it's the fact you can choose one of five (or three in D1, or a couple more with expansions) classes, the name, and nothing else to make your character unique. Maybe it's the kind of audience attracted to Hack & Slash styles of play. These days, it's the reputation of it being like that that maintains the community's composition.

[Link]

Originally posted by SpiritWarrior: Then you ministerpreted my post [img]smile.gif[/img] . The argument I was making was about the "different discussion". The contrast between paying to play versus free games. The subject touched on was the naming policy, my post was addressing your comment but then expanding to address the above arguments also (that in free games character names are lawless and 'unchallenged' but with a downside, no enforced law at all) As for the naming system alone, well I have already put forward the main reason: copywright infringement. Marvel is bringing NCsoft (the makers of City of Heroes) to court beacause of their lax attitude to CWed names and costume-design in their game. If that didn't tell every MMO to further tighten their naming policy I don't know what did.

Hmpf, I still stick to my point. Without getting too political here and bringing the topic to another level I think it's suffice to say that the American judicial system is crooked at every bend in the river. Isn't it an ode to Marvel that people use the names of their comic book characters? Regardless of what Marvel thinks in general and what it thinks it can earn by taking the case to court, NCsoft is hardly to blame for what happened in City of Heroes. After all, it's the players themselves that decide on a name and the clothing of their character.
The world is too much about owning property instead of sharing it. It may be a bit idealistic of me to think this way, but sueing a game for copyright infringement once again demonstrates to me the fact that the world is getting so damn bureaucratic it's hardly possible anymore to make a statement without breaking one of the billion rules out there. If people would just relax, ease up with their rules, and stop imposing their ideas on other people, perhaps this world will work out after all. In my eyes credit is earned, and not taken.

[/wishful thinking]

Originally posted by SpiritWarrior: I mean this with all due respect. When you tell me you're not that convinced by my arguments but then say that you've never "played a MMORPG ever" something doesn't add up. Really I don't think one can have a valid perspective on the issue without at least being part of the MMO experience once thus rendering you a viable judge of both PTP and free online games. Reviews and opinions mean little if you have no first-hand experience to draw from in order to make a comparison.

I don't see it as an insult, so don't worry [img]smile.gif[/img] Usually I'm quite cool when it comes to discussion online. It's the discussions in real life that sometimes tend to remove the blood under my fingernails.

On your point, though, I admit it's hard for me to really 'judge' the MMORPG genre as a whole, or even a part of it. You're right that I'm not involved in it. But do I need to be a politician to critize politics? Do I need to be a historian to have an opinion about the Middle Ages? I think not. I would even go so far to say that I'm not even judging the MMORPG in my post, I'm merely advocating for one of them.
I believe in sound arguments, decent comparisons and well-balanced conclusions. In my eyes, a difference between two things does not necessary make one thing better than the other. It merely makes them different. What I felt what was happening in this thread was that members were creating a bias towards, in this particular case, Guild Wars. The main focus of my point was merely the presumptious tone that was accompanying all the arguments here.

Originally posted by SpiritWarrior: I haven't really judged Guild Wars itself before it's release, but rather all free online games. Yes, it's sad but I played free for years with bad experiences (insisted I'd never pay some company on a monhtly basis to play games) but after moving up I never looked back and can safely say my gaming experience has greatly improved in this environment.

I'm glad you have found out that MMORPG's that ask for a monthly subscription work out better for you. This does not mean, however, that you can generalize all free online games by saying that they are all doomed to be crowded with PK's, hackers, corrupt DM's etcetera. Isn't it true that online gaming is undergoing constant transformation as well as everything else?

[ 03-06-2005, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: Link ]

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally posted by Legolas: I find it is in fact the lack of central GMs and the fact that anyone can start their own server that makes it possible to find a proper world. A DM doing his worst to you doesn't keep you from logging off and then going someplace where that individual doesn't have the ability to bully others. While the lack of rules and official policing leaves potential for those kinds of situation, it also leaves potential for the opposite. Again, a matter of searching around. For me the lawless hack-filled public servers were a good reason to play Servervault games (contrary to Localvault, characters start at level 1 and with standard equipment here as opposed to being able to import any item or character they can think to make into the game), and to try a few other places. These days scripting's become familiar enough that LV servers can be restricted just the same, and many of the obvious hacks have been patched. I'm also well pleased with the official support it's still receiving to this day. Like I said though, NWN's perhaps not quite as massive as WoW and similar MMORPGs, so I realise it's not entirely similar. As for Diablo 1 and 2, I have never once seen anyone there even trying to act in character. The only roleplay aspect is character advancement, but there doesn't seem to be a roleplay reason behind the choices made. It's all about which combinations are most powerful (and how many people you can kill with it). Perhaps it's due to the linear nature of the game, with its pre-set storyline on all three levels of play. Maybe it's the fact you can choose one of five (or three in D1, or a couple more with expansions) classes, the name, and nothing else to make your character unique. Maybe it's the kind of audience attracted to Hack & Slash styles of play. These days, it's the reputation of it being like that that maintains the community's composition.

Yeah Legolas, I played SV on NWN's for awhile actually. I was just looking at it from a public server point of view and telling of my experiences in what the game tried to do and where it fell doing so. Again, I found paid GM's who were part of an established command structure always played by the rules since you were paying for their services and could simply report them to their "boss". You have no such power or rights against someone you'd meet DMing a NWN's server. Yes, you can always log out but isn't that really the whole point? That one is forced to log-out ending their gaming experience for the moment? I remember many a time throwing my hands up in the air and shouting to the heavens. "Idiots, I'm surrounded by idiots!". Ok, that didn't happen [img]tongue.gif[/img] but bah, you know it got old.

As for your observation of Diablo...well powerplay is certainly as big an issue in NWN's also. Again, depends on the server I suppose.

Originally posted by Link: Hmpf, I still stick to my point. Without getting too political here and bringing the topic to another level I think it's suffice to say that the American judicial system is crooked at every bend in the river. Isn't it an ode to Marvel that people use the names of their comic book characters? Regardless of what Marvel thinks in general and what it thinks it can earn by taking the case to court, NCsoft is hardly to blame for what happened in City of Heroes. After all, it's the players themselves that decide on a name and the clothing of their character. The world is too much about owning property instead of sharing it. It may be a bit idealistic of me to think this way, but sueing a game for copyright infringement once again demonstrates to me the fact that the world is getting so damn bureaucratic it's hardly possible anymore to make a statement without breaking one of the billion rules out there. If people would just relax, ease up with their rules, and stop imposing their ideas on other people, perhaps this world will work out after all. In my eyes credit is earned, and not taken.

I couldn't agree more.

Originally posted by Link: On your point, though, I admit it's hard for me to really 'judge' the MMORPG genre as a whole, or even a part of it. You're right that I'm not involved in it. But do I need to be a politician to critize politics? Do I need to be a historian to have an opinion about the Middle Ages? I think not. I would even go so far to say that I'm not even judging the MMORPG in my post, I'm merely advocating for one of them. I believe in sound arguments, decent comparisons and well-balanced conclusions. In my eyes, a difference between two things does not necessary make one thing better than the other. It merely makes them different. What I felt what was happening in this thread was that members were creating a bias towards, in this particular case, Guild Wars. The main focus of my point was merely the presumptious tone that was accompanying all the arguments here...

You could certainly have an opinion but that opinion would carry alot more weight if you actually had some hands-on experiences. What if I educated people about Paris but never actually visited the place? I'd be all textbook and second-hand info. What if you created a computer game and I reviewed it without never playing it? Would you take that review seriously? Now, in something as tricky as the gaming industry and the MMO genre, certain things can make or break the experience for you ultimately being the deciding factor in whether you'd choose to pursue them or not.

Originally posted by Link: I'm glad you have found out that MMORPG's that ask for a monthly subscription work out better for you. This does not mean, however, that you can generalize all free online games by saying that they are all doomed to be crowded with PK's, hackers, corrupt DM's etcetera. Isn't it true that online gaming is undergoing constant transformation as well as everything else?..

There are no immense transformations every week if that's what you mean but yes, the system is (we like to believe) always being tweaked. Well I have, in a way automatically judged free games and I admit that. Unless some kind of valid policing system can be found that works around the lack of cash in a free game I don't see myself going back anytime soon. Oh I'm always watching, don't get me wrong .

[Luvian]

Originally posted by Legolas: As for Diablo 1 and 2, I have never once seen anyone there even trying to act in character. The only roleplay aspect is character advancement, but there doesn't seem to be a roleplay reason behind the choices made. It's all about which combinations are most powerful (and how many people you can kill with it). Perhaps it's due to the linear nature of the game, with its pre-set storyline on all three levels of play. Maybe it's the fact you can choose one of five (or three in D1, or a couple more with expansions) classes, the name, and nothing else to make your character unique. Maybe it's the kind of audience attracted to Hack & Slash styles of play. These days, it's the reputation of it being like that that maintains the community's composition.

It doesn't change anything if the game is roleplayed by people or not.

The reason there are no GM and no ignore feature is the reason there are so many griefers and spambot.

I like the game, and still play it often, but you have to admit it has no supervision at all.

No one answeared my question yet. Which free online game has a GM staff available on call 24/7?

[ 03-07-2005, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Luvian ]