Contradictions in religion (spin-off from the gay marriage 2 thread)

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: I think I finally found "my" bible: The skeptics annotated bible

You do realise I am a sceptic right? Scepticism is an approach. It's relative to the subject the person is sceptical of.

I am sceptical of atheism for example. Of capitalism, communism, democracy, scientism, oligarchism, totalitarianism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and a host of other things. A sceptic and a cynic both. Yet also an idealist with faith.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: Ahhhhh, but the bible says that we are made in gods own image, hence he IS a human. Either that or I have just pointed out another inconsistancy.

I think you meant to say "....just pointed out an apparent inconsistency" Since no alleged inconsistency presented is without a resolution.

Take yours here for example.

How is Van Goughs self portrait on canvass a human? It's a painting in the image of Van Gough. Heck you would look at it and say "it's Van Gough."

But it doesn't make the person Vincent Van Gough, a canvass painting, nor his self portrait, a human.

The only inconsistency is your interpretation of that scripture and your logic path. "XXXX XXX XXX hence/therefore/ergo/and so YYYYY YYY YYY YY"

Nope. No inconsistency.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Chewbacca: I think I finally found "my" bible: The skeptics annotated bible

You do realise I am a sceptic right? Scepticism is an approach. It's relative to the subject the person is sceptical of.

I am sceptical of atheism for example. Of capitalism, communism, democracy, scientism, oligarchism, totalitarianism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and a host of other things. A sceptic and a cynic both. Yet also an idealist with faith. [/QUOTE]And I am skeptical of God. Chewie, this bible is the one I quoted on the other thread for its list of contradictions.

Back to contradictions -- since we started a whole new thread for it:

Yorick, you have recognized that there are clerical contradictions in the Bible. Now, we have basic consensus on that. Let's move on.

Do you deny that there are experts and theologians that believe thematic and/or factual (important facts, not just clerical/numerical) inconsistencies exist? I am not asking you if they are right or wrong -- we have established that I am at best going to give your views/arguments equal footing with educated expert opinions, and for now I will not rate one or the other as "right" or "better" or "per se more true." So, are there experts out there that disagree with you on the issue of contradiction?

P.S. Sorry I could not do more than imply things regarding specific contradictions in my last post. Not being an expert, I am hard-pressed to go and assimilate enough information to make educated opinions yet. Besides, my point was not what the alleged inconsistencies are but rather that there are books written by priests and scholars about them. I think the statement from my wife IS fair proof of that point. She stood in the library, researched in the library, and wrote papers dealing with contradictions that referenced books in the library. She has offered to dig out the paper she wrote, but if I do that it will only be to cite books and authors.

In other words, at this point my only argument is that there are in fact expert opinions that there are contradictions. I will not, repeat will not, address the accurateness of alleged contradictions at this point. I am only trying to establish the fact that there ARE alleged contradictions by experts.

Do you agree?

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: And I am skeptical of God. Chewie, this bible is the one I quoted on the other thread for its list of contradictions.

Yes, I came across that list on the site and thought it looked familiar.

I am skeptical of many things as well, just about everything that claims to be an authority really. The moral authority of the bible for example.

I was totally skeptical of God with regards to the bible. The writings of Zecharia Sitchen are very responsible for my total lack of beleif in the God described in the Bible now.

Mere skeptism of the bible's God got trump by an overwhelming amount of evidence that shows the lack of his existence as it is popularly known. This doesnt mean I dont beleive in a universal infinite omnipresent creative mindforce, it just means I totally disbeleive the one literally taken in the bible.

[ 08-14-2003, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

[Chewbacca]

Faceman-

[img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

You make some excellent points in your replies to my posts. Many of the perspectives you offer make good sense. In reply I must emphasize my veiw that the contradictions that come to light do so when I look for moral guidance from the Bible like so many claim to do.

When one must wonder things like "should I be for or against issues like the death penalty, abortion, gay rights, unprovoked war, womens rights, pacifistsim, ect." and hits a brick wall of messages mixed thats when I think the contradictions are most visible and need the most scrutiny.


Now when many of these "contradictions" are put into a different context, they seem not to be very much contradictory at all. Similar to looking at a multi-faceted gem, when veiwed from different angles different color light is revealed.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: I was totally skeptical of God with regards to the bible. The writings of Zecharia Sitchen are very responsible for my total lack of beleif in the God described in the Bible now.

Sorry, more fuzzy belief stuff from my POV. The universe was, is, and will be. It is the eternal. And we are merely food for worms.

Of course other planets exist, and of course there is a strong likelihood they have developed life, perhaps even sentient life. Given the sheer vastness of the universe and general laws of probability, all of this is acceptable to me. But, a prime mover -- bah.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: quote: Originally posted by Chewbacca: I was totally skeptical of God with regards to the bible. The writings of Zecharia Sitchen are very responsible for my total lack of beleif in the God described in the Bible now.

Sorry, more fuzzy belief stuff from my POV. The universe was, is, and will be. It is the eternal. And we are merely food for worms.

Of course other planets exist, and of course there is a strong likelihood they have developed life, perhaps even sentient life. Given the sheer vastness of the universe and general laws of probability, all of this is acceptable to me. But, a prime mover -- bah. [/QUOTE]It's all good! I wouldn't dismiss his work as fuzzy belief stuff out of hand though, it's all based on good documented scientific archeology. It is one thing to consider the simple probability of other planets and life, it is another to have decent evidence. Of course if you peruse the books and come to the conclusion it is fuzzy belief stuff, it's still all good. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Funny, our veiws on the universe are more similar than different. Mmmm, tasty worm food!

[pritchke]

There is a passage in the Bible that may be imply ET's or UFO's visited the planet in ancient times.

Its true! Its true!

[Faceman]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: When one must wonder things like "should I be for or against issues like the death penalty, abortion, gay rights, unprovoked war, womens rights, pacifistsim, ect." and hits a brick wall of messages mixed thats when I think the contradictions are most visible and need the most scrutiny.

This is because the Bible is not "the book of all answers". Wisdom never gives you an easy answer just guidance. The issues you listed are controversial for good reasons and if you look for guidance in the Bible you'll find arguments pro and contra because they exist and because the Bible is NOT a single-minded rulebook like many blame it and many praise it to be. The Bible (especially the New Testament) tells us educational stories to get important points across to us in an easily understandable way.

Now to the structural differences between Old and New Testament:
The Old Testament is scripture of the official religion of the Hebrew people. Thus it supports the existing structures and e.g. advocates for capital punishment.
The New Testament is the biography of something that started out as a cult and therefore disagreed with the existing social structures in many viewpoints while seamlessly integrating with the old writings. So it does not contradict but base itself on the Old Testament while having a different attitude towards society.
When Jesus says: "This is my blood of the New Testament" he's reforming but not denying the Old Testament.

!bad comparison coming up!
Calling that a contradiction would be like saying: "The new Corvette contradicts the '89 Corvette because it has another engine" The new Corvette will only "contradict" the Old one once it has 5 reverse gears and only one for forward or if it needs to be pushed to generate gasoline (I just realized how funny that woudl be [img]smile.gif[/img] )

So basically what I'm trying to say is that the Bible is no rulebook. So seek advice and guidance but no easy answers!
And that the New Testament is not a counterpart to the Old Testament but rather a reforming sequel.

[Faceman]

Originally posted by pritchke: There is a passage in the Bible that may be imply ET's or UFO's visited the planet in ancient times. Its true! Its true!

There also is a passage in the local phonebook that MAY IMPLY visitors from outer space. And there's a passage in the Bible that MAY IMPLY that I am the antichrist.
Now if you excuse me I have a planet to destroy. [img]graemlins/diablo.gif[/img]

[ 08-14-2003, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Faceman ]