Are CRPGs as good as they used to be?.

[Angelousss]

something i like about Bioware, is they set a goal, they reach that goal and reach it well.
the Bg series was designed to be and epic party adventure.
Icewind dale was designed to be a hack and slash, dungeon crawl.
Pst was designed to be a playable story
NwN was designed for the online gamer, hopefully giving him the tools to recreate closer to ad&d online then he ever had before.

You can't penalize a devolper for achieving their goal, or a game for being what's it's suppose to be. You can say it doesn't appeal to you but then you shouldn't be buying that game.
as for first person in rpgs any old skool gamer will tell you that's a throwback not an attempt to introduce a new idea into a genre.
3d is different, i think devolpers wanting to make use of the technology are struggling to find out how to use it.
I hope both lionheart and troika's new game which has already been brought up could be classic games in a few years. Toee could be exactly what your looking for.

[john]

I think yhe main reason their making so many new games multiplayer is that instead of paying once for the game you are making payments to them on a monthly basis.Thats like selling the game over and over...I too am still waiting for a good party based rpg.I loved BG2 and would be playing it still but I passed it on to a friend..

[andrewas]

Originally posted by Tar: Hmm I been to the TOME site and not much info is there. Can you tell me more about it plzs? Is it a single player rpg type? And is it text base or something since I noticed that the size of the download files are rather small.

www.thangorodrim.net is the best site for angband stuff. A lot of info and some tutorials as well.

Trials of Middle Earth is the most complicated roguelike currently active, AFAIK. It would be an idea to play vanilla for a while - V is the base game in the angband family, and its fairly simple. Although still monstrously tough. Roguelikes are like that. Its the permanent death thats the main challenge. You can save-scum, backing up character files in case you die, but its frowned upon and is considered cheating of the highest order. Might be worth doing when learning, otherwise you can get stuck doing the very beginning of the game again and again learning nothing.

By the time youve got the hang of that, youll probably have noticed a load of other variants. I play Skills Angband. Best of the bunch IMHO. Best character development of any game.

ToME isnt my favorite, although DarkGod has put a lot of work into it and it is more stable these days. Not balanced though. Both of those use the Oangband combat system, so pay attention when starting, its very different to the V system which is similar(ish) to the D&D system.

All the roguelikes are short on storyline though, all hack&slash. The tactics are complex enough to keep it interesting though, something that arises because of the basic mechanics. ToME is one of the better ones in this regard, not everything you meet is trying to kill you, just the vast majority. Some people actualy converse with you.

There are multiplayer angbands out there as well, but Ive so far not played any.

[Luvian]

Originally posted by Nerull: Quote: Originally posted by Luvian: The whole point of Neverwinter Night was to sell a computer engine that would allow people to emulate traditional pen and paper games. The single player game is just a sample game to show you what is possible to do with the engine. You don't go online to "interact meaningfully with the game", you go online to interact with the other players in your group. That's also why you only get to control one character. That's because you roleplay that character. You are that character. Just like in pen and paper games. Humm... so only 14 years old powergamers blow their entire allowance on a game? What about the 14 years old roleplayer who buy a game? Is not blowing all his money on a game too?

Sure, there are 14 year old roleplayers out there. But more and more there is this move towards the hack & slash element and on skimping on the story, much like Paladin2000 stated. There is also this move towards online gaming; NwN is especially designed for this. However, they did not flesh out the characters in the game to the level of a BG2 or PST. You are right in that you go online to interact with the other players, but what if I don't want that? What if I want to come in from my very erratic hours at my job (which pretty much prevent me from multiplaying, at least with the same group, since my schedule is never reliable), and just sit down and play an RPG where I can interact with the characters? All I'm saying is that I really enjoy NPCs that are truly fleshed out and allow you some solid interaction with them. I felt that NwN was lacking in this area; hell, I would have loved it if I could take 2 other NPCs (or even one other) with me, and have them interact with each other. I don't have to control the other NPCs; let them do their own thing (I did install the mod that allowed them to change their strategy based on my orders, though; it only makes sense as the leader of the group to be able to tell them to conserve their magic for the bigger fights). However, I have come to prefer games that allow me to interact meaningfully with the characters I run into in the game. I didn't get that impression with NwN; in fact, as I played through, I could see where they rushed the campaign design (almost an afterthought). I have heard there are new campaigns out there now, designed by players who noted the lack of interaction, which allow for greater interaction between the characters in the game. I have yet to download them, so maybe that is where I need to start. I noticed that others feel the same way; go through the boards (especially the posts back when NwN first came out), and you will see them comparing the game to Diablo. Diablo is notorious hack and slash; why would they make that comparison if the game was fleshed out with NPC interaction?

I guess, in my own roundabout way, I am agreeing with Paladin2000. I see more and more games coming out which involve "kill the enemy, take the treasure, go buy bad-ass weapon." And I guess my big question is this: why are these things selling so well, unless there is a market out there for this type of game? Sure, there are 14 year old roleplayers out there, but obviously from the prevalence of hack and slash playing in many cases (i.e. Baldurs Gate Dark Alliance, Diablo, etc.), there are plenty more 14 year old powergamers out there who could give one whit if their companions say anything as long as they kill the enemy. They should take off the RPG label on these games and call them "strategy games." If you aren't interacting with the characters in the game, then how is it roleplaying? You are essentially using small-unit tactics in a fantasy setting; if that is the case, I'll go buy Warcraft III.[/QUOTE][img]graemlins/rant.gif[/img]
I understand what you are saying, but the whole point of NWN was to create a multiplayer engine, I just said it. If you want to play a great single player game, then don't buy a multiplayer engine.

As Angelous said, each games have their design style. I see lots of people saying that Icewind Dale, NWN,... don't have good enough roleplaying elements in them. Well, newsflash. THAT WAS DONE ON PURPOSE. If you want to play an Hack and Slash game, buy Icewind Dale or Diablo. If you want to play a multiplayer game then buy NWN. If you want a single player rpg, buy Baldur's Gate or Morrowind.

To me, buying NWN or Icewind Dale and complaining about the not having enough roleplaying in it is like buying a Freddy movie and complaining there is not enough story and romance in it, which is ridiculous.

Not everyone has the same playing style and interests, even among rpg players, so expecting every roleplaying games to be exactly the same is impossible. Not only would it get boring, it would alienate a lot of roleplayers out there. Your opinion of what is a good rpg is not everyone's opinion of what is a good rpg.

As for why Diablo is considered an rpg, it's simple. A roleplaying game is a game in which you assume the role of a character. That's the basic dfinition, but to be considered an rpg, a game need to have at least some attributes, some talking, and skills. But it's true that Diablo is closer to an action game than an rpg, that's why they are now calling such games "action rpgs".
[img]graemlins/rant.gif[/img]

And by the way, not only 14 years old love action/hack and slash games. I know lot of mature people who enjoy them alot.

[Tar]

Originally posted by Angelousss: something i like about Bioware, is they set a goal, they reach that goal and reach it well. the Bg series was designed to be and epic party adventure. Icewind dale was designed to be a hack and slash, dungeon crawl. Pst was designed to be a playable story NwN was designed for the online gamer, hopefully giving him the tools to recreate closer to ad&d online then he ever had before. You can't penalize a devolper for achieving their goal, or a game for being what's it's suppose to be. You can say it doesn't appeal to you but then you shouldn't be buying that game. as for first person in rpgs any old skool gamer will tell you that's a throwback not an attempt to introduce a new idea into a genre. 3d is different, i think devolpers wanting to make use of the technology are struggling to find out how to use it. I hope both lionheart and troika's new game which has already been brought up could be classic games in a few years. Toee could be exactly what your looking for.

Erhmm well Both the IWD series and PST are made by Black Isle, not Bioware. Bioware is an independent game development conmpany of its own while Black Isle is an Interplay's game development studio. hehe dunno why a lot of peeps get it mix up and credit all those games to Bioware. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Personally, I love games made by Black Isle more than those by Bioware. They have a great story line.

PS: And thanks andrewas for your info on Angband. [img]smile.gif[/img]