cheating or not--whats your oppinion?

[Sever]

Originally posted by Baros: If you kill Gaal before chatting to him you can NEVER get his key. It's obviously a deliberate decision on the part of the designers, therefore I'd abide with it (cluaconsole in this case IS cheating IMO). Personally I think it sucks, but I didn't write the game... If you'd talked to him then dropped the key somewhere that might be a different matter.

Maybe some minor spoilers.

Is this what happens if you run riot and kill everyone as opposed to joining the cult and investigating. I've never done it the straight out massacre way. [starting to wonder if i'm missing out on something] The two courses are the good; joining and investigating on Helm's behalf, and the bad; doin it your own way. Assuming that these are the only options, that means that by doin it the good way you get to explore deeper into the sewers and get access to both a good quest and an evil quest (assuming kangaxx is evil which is what i consider it to be). By doing it the evil way, both the good and bad quests are not achievable. "Evil will oft shall evil marr," or something.

It seams strange that the evil option closes other evil doors. I've always considered the kangaxx quest to be evil in alignment but maybe the designers thought otherwise. Who, but they, can say? Anyways, i'm drifting OT (and to ZZs unless i can stop talking about kangaxx).

Originally posted by Malthaussen: 1) How does one "cheat" in a game he plays by himself? I rather thought "cheating" was doing something in a competition not allowed under the rules in order to defeat one's opponent. Since CRPG games don't have "opponents" in any reasonable sense of the word, how can one cheat? Anything that adds to one's enjoyment in playing (or replaying) a game is hardly something to be ashamed of, rather it should be celebrated. 3) The thing that confuses me most about the "cheating" issue is simply this: why is it an issue at all? Who is grading us on how we play a silly computer game? What difference does it make how we go about doing it? What bragging rights, monetary awards, or potential career advancements are at stake that makes "cheating" in a computer game an action to be deplored or defended?

1) There are no real opponents, true, except for the one who is actually playing; You. I don't know how many times people used to tell me this when i was younger (and i can't believe that i'm saying it now) but "cheating [the computer] is cheating yourself" of the enjoyment/satisfaction you get when you achieve your goal without cheating. Bragging rights are fun, though they count for little as long as Dundee's here [img]smile.gif[/img] (not many tactics/victories i can think of that haven't been posted by Dundee already) and there's not a dog in hell's chance that any of us are likely to gain financially from doing it legit (or illegit). What then does that leave us with? A shallow, empty shell of a game? This forum would be pretty dead if that were the case. It leaves us with a unique tactical challenge set out for us by the designers. I accept the fact that not all people share this theme, though what they do see in a game like BG2 if not an entertaining challenge is beyond me. At the end of the day it comes down to, as you said, "Whatever floats your boat".

[ 01-11-2003, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Sever ]

[Baros]

Sever - Amen.

The few times I've crossed over the line of what I consider cheating I can't be bothered to carry on. If I'm going to ctrl-Y one opponent, the next is so much more likely. I only use SK for making changes to things like the avatar now and I actually removed the cheat option from the ini file.

[Dundee Slaytern]

To Each His Own.

That said, I tend to either smile or shake my head whenever I read a post that tells of unfair advantages gained through cheating. Sometimes, to the point where one has to ask himself, what is the point then?

I smile, because of pride. Pride in that I did not need to resort to cheating to accomplish what that other player did. Note that I am not talking about cheating to resolve bugs, but cheating such as CTRL+Y.

I shake my head because sometimes... when I go to forums where game mods are being discussed, it is not uncommon to come across posts that praise how nice the Improved Mods were, then in the next sentence, freely admit that they cheated to conquer the Mod.

What is the point of installing the Mod then? Where is the challenge? The game was never designed to be a pushover. The satisfaction gained from accomplishing the seemingly impossible with whatever tools and wits you can gather at that moment is what it is all about, apart from the immersion of the game world that interacts with you.

Truth be told, I have no respect for the gamer that resorted to cheating to defeat his enemies, as I personally believe that they are the worst forms of cheating.

Cheated to bypass a bug? No problem I guess, though personally I will just grit my teeth and reload an earlier save. Cheated to remove the XP Cap? Okay I guess... but know that any class/kit can solo the game without the need to remove the XP Cap, as me and several veterans will attest. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Okay, I think I ranted enough already.

[Baros]

Whilst I agree largely with Dundee I do need to make a couple of points (because I'm that sort of person, and I can [img]smile.gif[/img] )

First off - the game is about enjoying yourself. If something is denying enjoyment and a "cheat" can prevent that, then aside from removal of a challenge, where's the harm?

Secondly - the XP cap, particularly on solo, does infringe on MY enjoyment of the game. Part of the pleasure of gaming (whether PnP or CRPG) is the advancement of characters. Particularly in BG2/TOB where the HLAs add something extra to the game. When you hit a point where you cannot get any better it does lose something. There are reasons behind this issue - the game is balanced for party play and soloing destroys that, but the overall power level is too high and XP rewards are too great in general. I also find that, particularly using rogues, that mid to high-levels are too easy to gain (levels 15 through to 39 are very easy to gain as the powerlevel of quests increases) leaving a massive amount of XP points to get to the final level. Using a level 50 patch alleviates some of these problems, without decreasing the challenge (there's not really much difference between a level 40 and 50 character)

[Melusine]

I agree with Malthaussen, good points mate.
I don't really see what all the fuss is about with regard to cheating, and I definitely don't need any definitions of it. ("removing the XP-cap? That's cheating!!" "Is not!" "Using Ctrl+Y is cheating, but giving yourself different stats in SK is not" Helllooooo, what are you really getting worked up over?)

Frankly, I don't give a damn how people play the game, as long as they enjoy themselves. And I would not lose respect for someone getting tired of fighting a near-invincible enemy and cheating in order to move the game along. LMAO! I don't base respect for people on how they play a silly game, there's a lot more that comes into it.
What do I have to say about how others want to play the game? As long as you have fun while doing it, you have my blessing

That said, I usually don't cheat myself, certainly not on the first time through the game, but like Cerek I have sometimes created Identify scrolls to nudge the game along and spare me the tedious "Change all Magic Missiles into Identifies, rest, Identify items, change Identifies into Magic Missiles, rest" routine. I really don't see how it should matter to anyone how others choose to enjoy their games, unless multiplaying comes into the picture. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 01-13-2003, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: Melusine ]

[Baros]

The examples just stated are those where the game system/engine get in the way of enjoyment of the game. I always thought that the spell memorisation idea was the weakest part of D&D anyway. I still wouldn't bother adding scrolls in that way though. It's more effort than it's worth IMO. YMMV.