Moscow hostage situation - nervegas was the killer

Originally posted by Lord of Alcohol: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: It wasn't nerve gas! It was a knockout gas supposed to render unconciousness (sort of what one person on this board propose we use instead of guns to apprehend bad guys) not necessarily kill. But we see here that unlike in TV shows, it isn't as safe or simple as Hollywood would have you believe. I suppose technicly those kinds of gases may be called "Never Agents" but the intent wasnt to kill but to render harmless. Give the guys responsible a break, they did the best they could with what they had. How many of you could really have done better? If the intent had been to kill they could have saved the money, bullets are much cheaper than chemical agents anyway. [img]graemlins/1disgust.gif[/img]

Give them a break? When they screwed up and killed 118+ people? Are you crazy? I'm not meaning to be inflammatory but your trivialising the death of a lot of people. Whoever was in charge of this fiasco should go on trial, along with any other idiot who was involved in this "gas" idea. Should a drunk driver not go to jail if they kill someone in an accident? Do they deserve a "break"? No the give them a break arguements are absurd. Whatever moron who thought up this harebrained scheme does NOT desreve a break.[/QUOTE]Im not trivializing the deaths. You don't think those guys are going to have problems living with the fact that they killed their fellow coutrymen insteadof rescuing them as they had hoped? The way SOME people make is sound, they went in there trying to kill the hostages. I can sympathize with the idea that the plan went bad. Things like that happen... You don't need the world jumping your shit, because you already have heaped enough on yourself. It is very easy to be a monday morning quarterback. Thats all Im saying.

Originally posted by andrewas: @magick - I dont know enough about gassing people to argue with you, but the troops did know what conditions were like inside. No excuse for what happened if you ask me. But the part about the miliatary refusing to disclose what was used, costing lived because appropriate treatment coudnt be provided, nobody could call that reasonable.

There are a lot of unknowns but I will bet you that it wasnt the onsite military commander that called the shots. It was 90% likely to be some politician, or desk jockey making the decisions. It was a very bad result, but Im guessing the guys on scene are as bummed at the results as anyone.

[Horatio]

Just in case some of you want to see what the MAIL ON SUNDAY has to say:

Innocent hostages of the Moscow theatre seige were gassed to death by the troops sent to rescue them, it emerged last night. Commandos of Alpha Force, Russia's SAS, pumped secret sleeping gas into the auditorium where Chechen terrorrists were holding 850 hostages and then launched a devastating assualt using stun grenades and automatic weapons. Some 34 terrorists were slain-but so were at least 90 innocents. Many were caught in the crossfire as hooded troops and Chechens-many of them women- engaged in a vicious gun battle. There were angry claims last night, however, that the sleeping gas was responsible for over half the deaths. Russian officials refused to identify the compound last night, but doctors confirmed that it caused paralysis and heart failure. Last night some 40 hostages were being treated in Moscow hospitals, suffering from the effects of the 'poisening'. Furious arguments broke out when relatives were denied access to the casualties. The official explanation was that the authorites feared some terrorrists might be posing as released hostages. Angry families claimed that the hospitals had been comp[letely sealed off simply because the government did not want the truth to emerge about the gas attack. This was backed up by two senior doctors who spoke out, against Russian regulations, to claim taht the so called 'sleeping gas' was really a strong poisen. Olga Karpova, of the Moscow Rescue Service, said 'This was a strong poisenous substance which effectively paralyses the respiratory system and affects the cardiological system. It can result in death. I saw this with my own eyes today."

[Chewbacca]

Wrong + Wrong = Wrong.

[Iron_Ranger]

I am not taking either side here, I dont know enough about the sintiuation to pick sides. But I was just wondering, what would have you people done? And dont give me that "I dont know, but I wouldnt have gased 100+ people" BS.

[/)eathKiller]

Lesson learned: If you're gonna drive the terrorists out, use Napalm, and alot of it...

[andrewas]

Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: I am not taking either side here, I dont know enough about the sintiuation to pick sides. But I was just wondering, what would have you people done? And dont give me that "I dont know, but I wouldnt have gased 100+ people" BS.

Among other things, read the manual for the gas before pumping it into the building. If this gas (whatever it was) is regarded as safe for use, then there must be documentation somewhere that warns of the effects. And of course, no-one would be mad enough to use an untested gas, right? I mean, even politicans should know better than that.

And I woudnt have kept details fromt the docs either. Using a toxic gas by accident is one thing, witholding information from medical personnel is getting onto criminal.

[johnny]

Well, their mainobjective has been reached: to end the whole thing. Russians just have different standards than western countries do, human lives don't have the same value either.

[Lanesra]

Originally posted by /)eathKiller: Lesson learned: If you're gonna drive the terrorists out, use Napalm, and alot of it...

You live on a millitary base right? are you going to join the forces ? because I think you'd be really good at it.

[Wulfere]

The only thing I see here is a tragedy. Too many of you think that things like hostage rescue are done easily. They aren't. There is as much risk in attempting a rescue as there is in leaving the hostages in the clutches of the people who took them. The guilt felt by them men who went in will be as real as the pain and anguish of the families and Russian people. The use of gas was risky. I have been trained in everytype of gas known (at least at the time I was in) and they are always risky to use. Most are devised for outdoor use. Using them indoors is a calculated risk. Using a gas that has not been designed for use like this is also very dangerous. But, what would you have had them do? 90 armed people hiding behind 700 hostages. The building thouroughly booby-trapped. The scope of that staggers me. Jumping on the damnation bandwagon doesn't do anyone any good. Wait for the facts to come out completely.

As for guilt felt by the Alpha team. Example...
Here in Nebraska. The Shootings at the Norfolk bank. Most might have heard about this. Armed men went in and began shooting people in the bank. Then fled.
5 people died. One officer in the area found out that one of the killers had been arrested by him a few weeks before. But, because he was tired and while typing up his report transcribed the serial number from the gun the suspect had been holding, transposing two numbers, the fellow was released. That officer felt incredible grief. Two weeks ago he shot himself to death. He said in his note that "he couldn't live with what he had done" He left a family behind and three kids. Can you imagion that kind of grief or guilt. He didn't do anything worse than a clerical error.

These Russian soldiers will be no less affected. Lets take a step back here and a deep breath before we start assigning blame.