Mass shooting in Melbourne

[Leonis]

Memnoch, as always you come up with the goods mate. Thanks for the facts.
I only saw your post after I'd sent mine. Cheers man!

[Davros]

Originally posted by MagiK: I thought guns were illegal in Australia. I remember reading a bunch of hoopla about it. Perhaps another law againse murder would help?

Well thank goodness he didn't have access to the automatic and semi-automatic street sweepers that pervade some other countries. Those are the guns that are banned by our laws oh Hunter of all things Magik.

Nice to have the gun lobby along with their usual informed coment though isn't it . Where is the third of the triumverate, or is he Oblivious to this thread as yet.

Now I can sit back and enjoy endless waffly replies about the wonder of guns. Oh joy - perhaps this is a good week to learn knitting or something useful like that.

[Barry the Sprout]

A bit of an odd thought just occurred to me... This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, just people supporting the gun lobby in general. As far as I can see we have this for logic:

1. Whatever we do, people will kill other people. This is bad.

2. Murder is written into the human spirit and is not affected in the least by society, therefore we must accept the fact that people will always be killed. No possible actions taken by society as a whole will stop it. This is bad.

3. Not all people have to be like this, most are normal. Some are evil, they are the ones who will always kill others. We can do nothing to stop this, except kill them. If we kill them, this is good, because the act of killing someone is inherently ambigious and human life is not essentially sacred.

4. So whilst we can do nothing to stop murders, and more happen when we have guns readily available statistically, we should legalise guns as all that stuff I said earlier about not being able to stop it was nonsense. If we were armed everywhere we went then we would have nothing to fear, so there actually is a cure for murder, it isn't really inherent in humanity after all. This is bad, but only because it invalidates itself as a viable argument...

So, as far as I can tell, this is what the pro-gun argument boils down to:

The human race is essentially violent and destructive, we can do nothing to stop this violence as it is inherent, so we should make getting hold of dangerous weapons much easier as that would make everyone much safer.

Great, just great...

Originally posted by Davros: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: I thought guns were illegal in Australia. I remember reading a bunch of hoopla about it. Perhaps another law againse murder would help?

Well thank goodness he didn't have access to the automatic and semi-automatic street sweepers that pervade some other countries. Those are the guns that are banned by our laws oh Hunter of all things Magik.

I do protest Sir! I have never in my life hunted any thing that was MagiK. I also believe that you are misinformed, Austrralia did not just ban auto and semi auto weapons, I believe they have banned all firearmes, or at least all hand guns.

Nice to have the gun lobby along with their usual informed coment though isn't it . Where is the third of the triumverate, or is he Oblivious to this thread as yet.

Not sur who you are tlakin about since many people on this board own and use firearms.

Now I can sit back and enjoy endless waffly replies about the wonder of guns. Oh joy - perhaps this is a good week to learn knitting or something useful like that.

I suppose you hold the PERSON who actually used the inanimate tool for the destruction blameless, had the tool not been available then this nutcase would have never done anything. Oh joy the wonder of guns, love to hear that. It almost always comes from a person who has never evenheld one or used one. Usually it comes from a person who doesnt believe people are to blame for their misdeeds, and that they are just subject to misfortune. (note: I used modifying words in my statement, so that I was not making any absolute accusation of any particular person)

[/QUOTE]

Originally posted by Leonis: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: I thought guns were illegal in Australia. I remember reading a bunch of hoopla about it. Perhaps another law againse murder would help?

Most guns are illegal for most people MagiK. This came into effect largely after the Port Arthur Massacre - http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial/bryant/

Of course illegal (imported or stolen) are still readily available. Apparently it has made it alot harder for people to just grab a gun and start shooting, but not impossible.

Which is the very point that we are trying to make, when we say that laws that make owning a gun criminal means that only criminals will have guns. You can't keep drugs off the street, why would you do any better at keeping the guns off the street? It isn't the normal every day gun owner out there comitting the crimes.

This type of incident unfortunately, is not new, but is painfully highlighted by recent tragic events. Back when my wife was in high school some maniac killed her friends sister with a machette as she was sitting in a mall he shot and killed a number of others too. This was around 8 years ago and there have been many incidents before and since.

I think many Australians are feeling highly insecure as we seem to be faced with escalating violence of both domestic and terrorist kinds, yet have little history or infastructure for dealing with and preventing these kinds of crimes.

Personally I don't feel like the dangers are much higher than they have been. They have always been around and the nature of the crimes - that the perpetrator has no concern for their own safety when commiting it, even prepared to die for it - means that we can't do a hell of a lot differently.

I guess that the blinkers have come off for a lot of Aussies now though, and they are realising that one day these incidents they read about in the papers and see on tv could be in their own backyard so to speak.

If everone is packing, that means any one nutjob is not going to be able to do nearly as much damage before he is stopped.

It used to be that Men were responsible for the protection of themselves and their loved ones. It really appears to me that the role of a man has been eroded to the point where we are all too emasculated to defend ourselves, and if we do...we are prosecuted by the law. (yeah I know that is construed as sexist by some women but I know many women who appreciate a man who makes them feel protected and secure too...but that isn't PC or popular to say these days)[/QUOTE]

[ 10-21-2002, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: A bit of an odd thought just occurred to me... This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, just people supporting the gun lobby in general. As far as I can see we have this for logic: 1. Whatever we do, people will kill other people. This is bad. 2. Murder is written into the human spirit and is not affected in the least by society, therefore we must accept the fact that people will always be killed. No possible actions taken by society as a whole will stop it. This is bad. 3. Not all people have to be like this, most are normal. Some are evil, they are the ones who will always kill others. We can do nothing to stop this, except kill them. If we kill them, this is good, because the act of killing someone is inherently ambigious and human life is not essentially sacred. 4. So whilst we can do nothing to stop murders, and more happen when we have guns readily available statistically, we should legalise guns as all that stuff I said earlier about not being able to stop it was nonsense. If we were armed everywhere we went then we would have nothing to fear, so there actually is a cure for murder, it isn't really inherent in humanity after all. This is bad, but only because it invalidates itself as a viable argument... This is where the flaw in your argument falls down. For every group or organization that says legalized guns cause more deaths there are those that argue that the opposite is true. Everyone ehars about the people who go on rampages and kill people with guns while only local residents ehar about it when someone successfully defends them selves with guns. And finally. Why would you punish people who have comitted no crime for the action of others? Sounds a bit unjust to me. Our constitution does have the 2nd ammendment AND Our first president wrote extensivly on how important firearms are to citizens. It isn't convenient for the anti-gun lobbyists to explore that issue, rather they want to justify the means with the ends which is never a good idea. So I think your argument is simplistic and unrealistic. So, as far as I can tell, this is what the pro-gun argument boils down to: The human race is essentially violent and destructive, we can do nothing to stop this violence as it is inherent, so we should make getting hold of dangerous weapons much easier as that would make everyone much safer. Great, just great...

[Davros]

Oh shoot - look who's joined the party.

NO - you are wrong on point one, Oblivious to subtitle and the world around you on point two, and then (predictably) came the pro gun waffle.

In your language I believe that is called batting 0 for 3.

Someone has offered to teach me knitting - fortunately I took the 30 mins opportunity to arrange lessons. My thanks to the kind compassionate soul who is to assist me with patient instruction - I now know that my next week can be spent on productive activities.

Don't let me detain you a moment longer - you must have wonderful, inventive, and (gasp) "NEW" theories you will want to espouse.

Exit stage right

Thank you Davros for being clear, unambiguous and direct. Toodles, enjoy stage right. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Yorick]

Aggression is endemic to human society
The gun is a recent phenomena
Where once you would hit someone in the head in rage
Now you can shoot them
Destroying their life instead of just their face

With the gun a child can kill seven people
Instead of attempting to bruise or cut seven people
A trigger finger replaces biceps and a longer cause/effect time

Instant death

Ban the gun.

Originally posted by Yorick: Aggression is endemic to human society The gun is a recent phenomena Where once you would hit someone in the head in rage Now you can shoot them Destroying their life instead of just their face With the gun a child can kill seven people Instead of attempting to bruise or cut seven people A trigger finger replaces biceps and a longer cause/effect time Instant death Ban the gun. Im supposing that said child is too mentally feeble to go to the library or the internet, learn a bit of household chemistry and learn how to make bombs with every day household materials? As for banning the gun, go ban it in your own country not in mine. Oops you did that and a guy still went on a killing spree..yes more laws are the answer, lets make more laws... Sheesh, get real.