Gamestyle - Page 2

Variol (Farseer) Elmwood · 09-09-2003, 06:34 AM

What fountain in Trynton replenishes your MP? Is it the one that gives you + 5 Intel.?

Kakero · 09-09-2003, 07:22 AM

it's the one that can hex your characters.

elkston · 09-09-2003, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sultan:

personally, i just do what needs to be done and keep going. i take every level up i earn as soon as i earn it (except for some experimentation with dual-classing low-level spell casters - a near failure). occasionally, i have to reload my initial entrance to the road (5 crusher crabs is a bit much for a 4-man level 7 party), and very rarely run away while walking to arnika (usually only if there's been a dozen encounters!).

I'm with sultan here. I just progress my characters through the game in a "normal" fashion. No delaying level ups, No "training", etc. I think all of that really blows the fun out of the game. You will get plenty of experience through quests and there is no shortage of combat in the game.

I always balk at the advice given to newbies sometimes to "not go past level xxx" in the Monastery. It's just insane. Just play the damn game and let your skills develop naturally. From my point of view, "training" is an exploit.

Tony J · 09-09-2003, 01:22 PM

I am also with Sultan here. I also agree with the "training is an exploit" point of view. It's just not cricket! However with any game the idea is to enjoy yourself. So if playing with the vault for ages is your cup of tea then good luck to you. Likewise if you enjoy toying with a poor little green slime for hours then you go for it...Likewise if you feel that setting up a little renewal poition business until your party have more money then sense then cool...so long as you are enjoying yourself.

So far the most fun I have with the game was just recently when I finished it with one each of the four pure spellcasters with a fighter and samurai thrown in for good measure. The fun bit, oddly enough was not the spellcasters magic so much as the four of them with their doubleshot slings firing impaling stones. They were knocking out more enemies than the fighter...it was hilarious.

That's it from me for now...

Take care,

Tony.

EEWorzelle · 09-09-2003, 05:33 PM

Tony, with your four specialist spellcaster you played them as a Melee-Heavy group and that is an okay way to go, even it kind of wastes them a little.

I just wanted you to know that playing Magic-Heavy is okay, too. The difference is what is used to actually kill enemies. It is possible to use spells for that and Melee/Ranged only for cleanup.

I usually take a Bard and one other (Gadgeteer, Samurai, Ranger, Bishop... it varies). The trick is to favor damage Spells and don't bother so much with the "all or nothing" kill spells, or even cripple-only spells (these slow down but do not eliminate enemies). That statement is the tip of an iceberg; I go into much more detail in earlier posts.

These parties, that rely on Magic to kill but have a little Melee and Ranged capability are balanced within the game. Every time I talk about these parties it seems that someone talks about "pure" Magic parties, which are possible, for expert players, but miss my point which is that these parties are fun and exciting even for relatively new players (if experienced with the use of Magic in RPGs). That does not mean it is easy at all, especially on Expert Mode. I personally think the game is much deeper and more rich played this way. Every kind of enemy presents a new and interesting challenge.

The Specialist Pure Casters Level and gain their Spell capabilities quickly, allowing you to use magic throughout the game. Bard and Gadgeteer also have their own kind of spells (which is why I like them in this kind of party), but are good potentially good at Melee and Ranged respectively, which allows one to face almost any foes without fear, even when play Expert Mode and Ironman.

The reason I stay away from Fighters in these parties is specifically because of what happened to you. The only think the Fighter can do is fight or possibly throw things. With a Bard, Gadgeteer or Hybrid, they can cast Spells, too, so will fully participating in the party's primary battle tactics.

One can either mow down foes, one by one with thinning Spells (like Quicksand, Asphyxiation, etc.) crippling and Melee, or one can kill all foes at once, a little bit at a time, with damage Spells such as Shrill Sound, Psionic Fire, Whirlwind, etc. Either method works, but they mix very poorly.

Using the later method, 10 or 20 foes can all die at the same time. I see it all the time. If some of your characters, however, are mowing down some of that 20, that just makes fewer for the magic to hit and is entirely wasted.

[ 09-09-2003, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: EEWorzelle ]

Variol (Farseer) Elmwood · 09-09-2003, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by elkston:

quote:
Originally posted by sultan:

personally, i just do what needs to be done and keep going. i take every level up i earn as soon as i earn it (except for some experimentation with dual-classing low-level spell casters - a near failure). occasionally, i have to reload my initial entrance to the road (5 crusher crabs is a bit much for a 4-man level 7 party), and very rarely run away while walking to arnika (usually only if there's been a dozen encounters!).

I'm with sultan here. I just progress my characters through the game in a "normal" fashion. No delaying level ups, No "training", etc. I think all of that really blows the fun out of the game. You will get plenty of experience through quests and there is no shortage of combat in the game.

I always balk at the advice given to newbies sometimes to "not go past level xxx" in the Monastery. It's just insane. Just play the damn game and let your skills develop naturally. From my point of view, "training" is an exploit. [/QUOTE]Count me in on that!

Scatter · 09-09-2003, 07:18 PM

Not me. The game makers even included a comment in the characters' own repertoire: "You need more practise" for when a caster backfires. I take no moral stand, and disagree with anyone who does. That you call the act of allowing your team members to practise "Exploit" places a negative value on something that all professions in real life must do. How would you enjoy listening to musicians who never practise? Or maybe being operated on by a surgeon who'd never seen inside a body before?
I'm not saying anyone should practise, i'm saying you should not tell others not to practise; reducing others' enjoyment of the game as THEY see fit by imposing values on playing "naturally" or with any amount of (actually natural) practise.
There are many ways to have fun with this game. One of my new-found faves is getting to Light Sword as directly as possible. (just did it with a solo Lord at L13, not "saving" any levels)
As for me, i'm a bit compulsive, so my FUN is often in driving my chars' skills up as high as i have the patience for. And this game happens to have been made in such a way that almost all skills can potentially max in one level of any class that has those skills. (only really notable exception is PP, but that's only after the newest patch)
Just because you can't see the fun in that, or don't have the patience to do it, does not give you the right to impose your moral judgement on others looking for advice, who may be having their own fun until they read that you think it's cheating somehow.
BTW--you can boost Communications by making certain NPC's neutral (PP attempt) and then trying to Friendly them. Each attempt has a chance of increasing the skill.

Variol (Farseer) Elmwood · 09-09-2003, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scatter:
Not me. The game makers even included a comment in the characters' own repertoire: "You need more practise" for when a caster backfires. I take no moral stand, and disagree with anyone who does. That you call the act of allowing your team members to practise "Exploit" places a negative value on something that all professions in real life must do. How would you enjoy listening to musicians who never practise? Or maybe being operated on by a surgeon who'd never seen inside a body before?
I'm not saying anyone should practise, i'm saying you should not tell others not to practise; reducing others' enjoyment of the game as THEY see fit by imposing values on playing "naturally" or with any amount of (actually natural) practise.
There are many ways to have fun with this game. One of my new-found faves is getting to Light Sword as directly as possible. (just did it with a solo Lord at L13, not "saving" any levels)
As for me, i'm a bit compulsive, so my FUN is often in driving my chars' skills up as high as i have the patience for. And this game happens to have been made in such a way that almost all skills can potentially max in one level of any class that has those skills. (only really notable exception is PP, but that's only after the newest patch)
Just because you can't see the fun in that, or don't have the patience to do it, does not give you the right to impose your moral judgement on others looking for advice, who may be having their own fun until they read that you think it's cheating somehow.
BTW--you can boost Communications by making certain NPC's neutral (PP attempt) and then trying to Friendly them. Each attempt has a chance of increasing the skill.

I just think it's a lot more fun for my Lords to cast spells like Guardian Angel in the orange and actually have it work than always casting in the green. I do some practicing with the spells though. One of the best ways is to get the Staff of Doom and rest with no amulet; then let your caster(s) to their thing.

elkston · 09-09-2003, 09:06 PM

Well, I've thought about it, and maybe I should have stated it this way:

Training is unbalancing.

Since most examples of training (e.g. casting Light until Fire Magic realm is 100) do require patience and time, you can't really say the characters didn't "earn" their skills.

However, I don't think the designers intended for players to spend an inordinate amount of time training. Perhaps some, yes. Maybe to get you over certain advancement humps. But never to excessive amounts where you get 100 in something before you leave the Monastery.

Also, anything that causes a skill to just SHOOT UP in an unnatural way IS STILL an exploit in my opinion. In these instances, a player has found a flaw in the game logic that the designers did not forsee. Such flaws would be fixed in bugs if exposed. Can anyone think of an example? I'm at a loss right now, but I know they exist.

[ 09-09-2003, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: elkston ]

Scatter · 09-09-2003, 10:30 PM

Variol: the Mana fountain in Trynnton is up a little rope just as you emerge into the tree itself, after going up the really long hole with the rope. It'll hex you about 1/3 of the time.

09-09-2003, 06:34 AM	#11
Variol (Farseer) Elmwood Jack Burton Join Date: May 16, 2003 Location: Dartmouth, NS Canada Age: 60 Posts: 5,634	What fountain in Trynton replenishes your MP? Is it the one that gives you + 5 Intel.? __________________ A MAN WHO WANTS FOR NOTHING HAS INFINITE WEALTH. (me)

09-09-2003, 09:06 PM	#19
elkston Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: North Carolina Posts: 28	Well, I've thought about it, and maybe I should have stated it this way: Training is unbalancing. Since most examples of training (e.g. casting Light until Fire Magic realm is 100) do require patience and time, you can't really say the characters didn't "earn" their skills. However, I don't think the designers intended for players to spend an inordinate amount of time training. Perhaps some, yes. Maybe to get you over certain advancement humps. But never to excessive amounts where you get 100 in something before you leave the Monastery. Also, anything that causes a skill to just SHOOT UP in an unnatural way IS STILL an exploit in my opinion. In these instances, a player has found a flaw in the game logic that the designers did not forsee. Such flaws would be fixed in bugs if exposed. Can anyone think of an example? I'm at a loss right now, but I know they exist. [ 09-09-2003, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: elkston ] __________________ \"If you understood everything that I said, you\'d be me.\" - Miles Davis

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09-09-2003, 07:22 AM	#12
Kakero 40th Level Warrior Join Date: March 24, 2002 Posts: 10,215	it's the one that can hex your characters.

09-09-2003, 01:22 PM	#14
Tony J Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: September 8, 2003 Location: London Age: 52 Posts: 4	I am also with Sultan here. I also agree with the "training is an exploit" point of view. It's just not cricket! However with any game the idea is to enjoy yourself. So if playing with the vault for ages is your cup of tea then good luck to you. Likewise if you enjoy toying with a poor little green slime for hours then you go for it...Likewise if you feel that setting up a little renewal poition business until your party have more money then sense then cool...so long as you are enjoying yourself. So far the most fun I have with the game was just recently when I finished it with one each of the four pure spellcasters with a fighter and samurai thrown in for good measure. The fun bit, oddly enough was not the spellcasters magic so much as the four of them with their doubleshot slings firing impaling stones. They were knocking out more enemies than the fighter...it was hilarious. That's it from me for now... Take care, Tony.

09-09-2003, 05:33 PM	#15
EEWorzelle Manshoon Join Date: October 25, 2002 Location: Gilbert, Az Age: 73 Posts: 234	Tony, with your four specialist spellcaster you played them as a Melee-Heavy group and that is an okay way to go, even it kind of wastes them a little. I just wanted you to know that playing Magic-Heavy is okay, too. The difference is what is used to actually kill enemies. It is possible to use spells for that and Melee/Ranged only for cleanup. I usually take a Bard and one other (Gadgeteer, Samurai, Ranger, Bishop... it varies). The trick is to favor damage Spells and don't bother so much with the "all or nothing" kill spells, or even cripple-only spells (these slow down but do not eliminate enemies). That statement is the tip of an iceberg; I go into much more detail in earlier posts. These parties, that rely on Magic to kill but have a little Melee and Ranged capability are balanced within the game. Every time I talk about these parties it seems that someone talks about "pure" Magic parties, which are possible, for expert players, but miss my point which is that these parties are fun and exciting even for relatively new players (if experienced with the use of Magic in RPGs). That does not mean it is easy at all, especially on Expert Mode. I personally think the game is much deeper and more rich played this way. Every kind of enemy presents a new and interesting challenge. The Specialist Pure Casters Level and gain their Spell capabilities quickly, allowing you to use magic throughout the game. Bard and Gadgeteer also have their own kind of spells (which is why I like them in this kind of party), but are good potentially good at Melee and Ranged respectively, which allows one to face almost any foes without fear, even when play Expert Mode and Ironman. The reason I stay away from Fighters in these parties is specifically because of what happened to you. The only think the Fighter can do is fight or possibly throw things. With a Bard, Gadgeteer or Hybrid, they can cast Spells, too, so will fully participating in the party's primary battle tactics. One can either mow down foes, one by one with thinning Spells (like Quicksand, Asphyxiation, etc.) crippling and Melee, or one can kill all foes at once, a little bit at a time, with damage Spells such as Shrill Sound, Psionic Fire, Whirlwind, etc. Either method works, but they mix very poorly. Using the later method, 10 or 20 foes can all die at the same time. I see it all the time. If some of your characters, however, are mowing down some of that 20, that just makes fewer for the magic to hit and is entirely wasted. [ 09-09-2003, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: EEWorzelle ]

09-09-2003, 07:18 PM	#17
Scatter Symbol of Cyric Join Date: August 17, 2003 Location: Portland Age: 66 Posts: 1,336	Not me. The game makers even included a comment in the characters' own repertoire: "You need more practise" for when a caster backfires. I take no moral stand, and disagree with anyone who does. That you call the act of allowing your team members to practise "Exploit" places a negative value on something that all professions in real life must do. How would you enjoy listening to musicians who never practise? Or maybe being operated on by a surgeon who'd never seen inside a body before? I'm not saying anyone should practise, i'm saying you should not tell others not to practise; reducing others' enjoyment of the game as THEY see fit by imposing values on playing "naturally" or with any amount of (actually natural) practise. There are many ways to have fun with this game. One of my new-found faves is getting to Light Sword as directly as possible. (just did it with a solo Lord at L13, not "saving" any levels) As for me, i'm a bit compulsive, so my FUN is often in driving my chars' skills up as high as i have the patience for. And this game happens to have been made in such a way that almost all skills can potentially max in one level of any class that has those skills. (only really notable exception is PP, but that's only after the newest patch) Just because you can't see the fun in that, or don't have the patience to do it, does not give you the right to impose your moral judgement on others looking for advice, who may be having their own fun until they read that you think it's cheating somehow. BTW--you can boost Communications by making certain NPC's neutral (PP attempt) and then trying to Friendly them. Each attempt has a chance of increasing the skill.

09-09-2003, 10:30 PM	#20
Scatter Symbol of Cyric Join Date: August 17, 2003 Location: Portland Age: 66 Posts: 1,336	Variol: the Mana fountain in Trynnton is up a little rope just as you emerge into the tree itself, after going up the really long hole with the rope. It'll hex you about 1/3 of the time.

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