Game Discussion thread for "Shadow of Love"

[Larry_OHF]

DO NOT think that this survey is directed at any one person. I have had more than one complaint from different people about different people...and not all of them are as noticeable as others have been. If anyone wants to take this personal and feel attacked, you have a right to exclude yourself from gaming with the the others in the game I have designed. I do not care if you answer here on this page, or send the answer to me privately, if you have something to hide. Both ways are fine by me. Have fun.


1. Should the game be limited to a rule-set standard, where the players make the moves, but the DM calls the shots? The DM would be able to deny a move if it was outside standard, because he would know the strengths/weaknesses of each person playing...and has knowledge of things that the gamers do not.

2. Should the game be free-form, where each player is his/her own judge, and the game designer would not restrict the creativity of a player, as long as it did not interfere with the game's layout?

3. If you answered "Yes" to #1, what would you do or say if the DM allowed a move that you personally did not think was fair?

4. If you answered "Yes" to #2, do you have any suggestions on "how far is too far"? Does unlimited really mean unlimited or does it mean, "higher limits"? If it means "higher limits", then specify those limits please.

5. Do you trust the Game Designer, including all that he/she allows, does not allow, and the manner in which he/she is conducting the game?

6. If you answered "No" to any part of #5, what might the DM do to improve the game's performance besides conducting this survey and following through with the majority of the vote?

7. If you are the minority of this poll, will you:
a. Remove yourself from the game?
b. Conform to fit in with the majority of the vote?
c. Continue to do things your way until you have to be asked to leave?

8. Do you have a personal problem with anyone in this game, and if so, will it affect your gaming ability? If so, will you make attempts to resolve the issue or continue to allow it to hurt all other players on this game?


As a footnote, some players actually send me PMs of any item they possess, and even what post they are thinking about posting so that I can approve or not approve it. I am sure those people would say that I have been extremely generous and lenient, and those people probably like the way I am conducting this business. But let's see what everyone says now. Tell me if it can be done better, or should I leave it the same. If I leave it the same, what guarantee do I have...that these issues will never again surface?

[ 04-16-2004, 12:16 AM: Message edited by: Larry_OHF ]

[mistral4543]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: 1. Should the game be limited to a rule-set standard, where the players make the moves, but the DM calls the shots? The DM would be able to deny a move if it was outside standard, because he would know the strengths/weaknesses of each person playing...and has knowledge of things that the gamers do not. Yes, of course. Had this been a free-form sort of game, the rules would be different. But you have made it clear that the game is yours and being the DM, you have the right to call the shots. 2. Should the game be free-form, where each player is his/her own judge, and the game designer would not restrict the creativity of a player, as long as it did not interfere with the game's layout? That depends on your level of comfort, as to how much leeway you would like to give the players. It is more spontaneous and fun to have free-form, but you run the risk of the game taking on a life of its own that you do not have full control over. 3. If you answered "Yes" to #1, what would you do or say if the DM allowed a move that you personally did not think was fair? If I valued the friendships I had made through the game enough to want to stay on, I would accept the move and make the best of it. If I didn't, well then I would just write myself out of the game. Simple as that. 4. If you answered "Yes" to #2, do you have any suggestions on "how far is too far"? Does unlimited really mean unlimited or does it mean, "higher limits"? If it means "higher limits", then specify those limits please. I think the free-form game is usually a problem only when players become too powerful and say others cannot do this-and-that to their characters. Personally, I have never cared to have a powerful character so that is not a concern of mine. If I find my character being dealt with in a way that I cannot roleplay along with, or being abused, I would leave the game. 5. Do you trust the Game Designer, including all that he/she allows, does not allow, and the manner in which he/she is conducting the game? Yes, that's why I signed up for the game. 6. If you answered "No" to any part of #5, what might the DM do to improve the game's performance besides conducting this survey and following through with the majority of the vote? If I answered no, what am I doing in that game?? 7. If you are the minority of this poll, will you: a. Remove yourself from the game? b. Conform to fit in with the majority of the vote? c. Continue to do things your way until you have to be asked to leave? My answer is in 3. 8. Do you have a personal problem with anyone in this game, and if so, will it affect your gaming ability? If so, will you make attempts to resolve the issue or continue to allow it to hurt all other players on this game? Not that I can think of. Again, my answer is in 3.

[TAOWolf]

My answers are the same as Mistrals....

[dplax]

1. Some rules have to be made for the game and the DM has to decide what rules.
2. Could be to a certain extent.
3. I'd accept the DM's decision as it is his game.
4. Outside of combat the game could be freeform.
5. Yes.
6. I answered yes.
7. If I am the minority and people would not like that, I would try to change to some extent, so b.
8. I have no problem whatsoever with anyone.

I said I'd get a post together this morning, but I'll obviously do that when the game gets reopened.

[Elif Godson]

I mirror Mistrals sentiments to a T
I just have one thing to add, Have dice, will travel

[Morgeruat]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: 1. Should the game be limited to a rule-set standard, where the players make the moves, but the DM calls the shots? The DM would be able to deny a move if it was outside standard, because he would know the strengths/weaknesses of each person playing...and has knowledge of things that the gamers do not. I am personally more comfortable with a rulesbase, and bending the rules, and going freeform as needed by the plot, if a certain ability is required that is beyond the ken of that character it should be run past the GM to ensure that it doesn't detract from another players ability to play their character, ie if I cast a spell on another character I would send the specifics to the GM and have him decide what the effect is, it prevents the problems of freeform RP where characters become invincible quickly (i've seen it in one of the games I tried running freeform during the first LoF chronicle) as well as allowing the DM a measure of control on how the effect is carried out (would a person I attempt to charm know he was being cast upon? not always. 2. Should the game be free-form, where each player is his/her own judge, and the game designer would not restrict the creativity of a player, as long as it did not interfere with the game's layout? I think I went into a bit of detail above about the dangers of a purely freeform game, a healthy mix, as suggested by Mistral would work best. 3. If you answered "Yes" to #1, what would you do or say if the DM allowed a move that you personally did not think was fair? I would question the call behind the scenes if I felt it grossly unfair but in general I would assume that the GM has information I do not, and trust that he's got it under control. 4. If you answered "Yes" to #2, do you have any suggestions on "how far is too far"? Does unlimited really mean unlimited or does it mean, "higher limits"? If it means "higher limits", then specify those limits please. I think anytime you do something that greatly affects the world we game in, or any other players character then it should be resolved by the higher power, going back to a rulebase we can all agree on. (as stated at the start of this game it is in D&D terms, using NWN as a base for character model at the very least) 5. Do you trust the Game Designer, including all that he/she allows, does not allow, and the manner in which he/she is conducting the game? If I didn't I wouldn't be here. 6. If you answered "No" to any part of #5, what might the DM do to improve the game's performance besides conducting this survey and following through with the majority of the vote? I think this is a problem several people have (myself included) and not a fault of the GM is distinguishing ooc talk and IC talk in character (especially inner monologue type posts), ie taowolf's reaction to my char's statement about the TbtC, it was an IC statement that was taken as a player statement, her reaction was understandable if taken from the POV of a player speaking about another thread, rather than a characters thoughts, another instance was when the dragon followed my character through the portal in the first incarnation of the game and it's thoughts of supremacy were challenged by the GM, perhaps I should work harder at seperating player thoughts from character thoughts, and throw in disclaimers that what the character thinks most likely has little to do with what is actually occuring. 7. If you are the minority of this poll, will you: a. Remove yourself from the game? b. Conform to fit in with the majority of the vote? c. Continue to do things your way until you have to be asked to leave? within reason I will conform to b, rulesbased gaming is easier for me, as I know what limits I have, and can reasonably expect to know that others are conforming to the limits placed on their character by race/class/background, but I am adaptable and will be happy to go with the group consensus. 8. Do you have a personal problem with anyone in this game, and if so, will it affect your gaming ability? If so, will you make attempts to resolve the issue or continue to allow it to hurt all other players on this game?I do not.

[Morgeruat]

guess I basically mirrored Mistral, but I had some more stuff to add to flesh out my viewpoint more fully.

[Legolas]

1. Always Larry, always.
2. A yes here, both for creativity's sake and to keep the game from slowing to a crawl. I trust the players more than well enough to be convinced we can do this without major issues arising.
3. Mention it to the DM, including reasons, and asking him to reconsider. If he stands by his decision I won't let it keep me from having fun playing.
4. Too far is when there's a breach of courtesy by assuming too much in the ways of another character's response, or through harming another character and assuming a certain outcome thereof (e.g. damage numbers, amputated limbs or guards dragging someone off to prison). Which can be easily prevented by keeping posts short enough that they allow room for someone to respond to any of the main actions within a reasonable timeframe.
5. Of course not. I'd be insane to trust in the Modding Mage's good intentions. It's all running smoothly now, but just wait, he'll be trying to kill characters before you know it.
6. Nothing at all, I'll put up with it [img]smile.gif[/img]
7. I'll demand a recount. And have my characters vote as well. Then I'll try and fit in well enough to be able to do most things my way.
8. No.

[RevRuby]

1. Should the game be limited to a rule-set standard, where the players make the moves, but the DM calls the shots? The DM would be able to deny a move if it was outside standard, because he would know the strengths/weaknesses of each person playing...and has knowledge of things that the gamers do not.

i agree with nathan, but since he is my usual PnP DM that might be why. i like the structure when it is called for.

2. Should the game be free-form, where each player is his/her own judge, and the game designer would not restrict the creativity of a player, as long as it did not interfere with the game's layout?

again when it is called for. i see making up the words to spells fine. i see creating new spells fine (as long as the DM approves it) but again even freeform can have structure. please note for most things criticle to the outcome of the game i roll dice. i don't trust myself to decide if i "make it" or not, so i do it randomly, otherwise i could easily let myself power game.

3. If you answered "Yes" to #1, what would you do or say if the DM allowed a move that you personally did not think was fair?

i would pm the DM. his answer to my pm is then law whether i like his decision or not.

4. If you answered "Yes" to #2, do you have any suggestions on "how far is too far"? Does unlimited really mean unlimited or does it mean, "higher limits"? If it means "higher limits", then specify those limits please.

i don't think freeform goes without limits or even "higher limits" i think it means the pc decides his/her limits, and if the DM or other pc's feel someone has taken it too far it should be discussed civilly, either with only the DM or in a discussion thread.

5. Do you trust the Game Designer, including all that he/she allows, does not allow, and the manner in which he/she is conducting the game?

i trust the GM will do his best and will take good criticism from the players and make his own decisions.

6. If you answered "No" to any part of #5, what might the DM do to improve the game's performance besides conducting this survey and following through with the majority of the vote?

i think the DM is doing his best that is all i can ask of him.

7. If you are the minority of this poll, will you:
a. Remove yourself from the game?
b. Conform to fit in with the majority of the vote?
c. Continue to do things your way until you have to be asked to leave?

"d. other" i will play along and conform to as much as i can, but if i feel something needs looked at i will voice my opinion. if things become unbearable for me or my characters i'll walk away.

8. Do you have a personal problem with anyone in this game, and if so, will it affect your gaming ability? If so, will you make attempts to resolve the issue or continue to allow it to hurt all other players on this game?

no personal problems with any players

[Larry_OHF]

Very good, all of you that have posted. I see that not every player has had a chance to voice their opinions, so I am inclined to give them just a bit longer, because every person should have a say in this.

This is what I am seeing at this point.

***Everyone basically agrees with one another on the major points of game play. That is why we always tend to play in one another's games. Notice how similar the responses are.

What you have posted is exactly the type of game I am trying to create for each of you and all of you. I do not expect one player to be the super-star. Notice what happened to Brendon Grey at the end of the last game. Did he receive a hero's prize? Nope. What happened to Anarrima? She was able to cast one spell that did the Hunger in, but she would not have been able to do it alone. The game master at the time, Cyril, required that she have help or she would have died. Honestly. I would have let her die for the good of the game. If I get bested, then I am bested. How do you think Cyril killed The Mage in the first place? He outsmarted me! He was a better gamer, and I was clumsy. So I lost. Big deal, because everyone including me had FUN!

Okay...Let me mirror your posts that have been made so far and tell you what This game is about.

1. This is a free-form game that has limits, and those limits are what I set. If I allow one character certain things and not another, it is because it serves a particular purpose that virtually serves my purposes. I am not strict, and usually allow special things if you ask me and make your case well.

2. If anyone feels cheated that one person has more than you, ask me for an allowance. I will hear you out, and try to give you what you want, if it will not detract from the plot. I have to keep the story on-track, but I want you to have...guess!...FUN!

3. I would like to see people of various degrees of power, and experience because having 10 clones of equal brute strength is boring for me to DM. That is one of the reasons that I am playing a lowly first-level nobody that has lost his previous life's XP.

4. I just want everyone to love this game and love playing with your friends here on this forum. I am a moderator here, so it is my job to ensure that you are all having fun. By me taking part within this fun does not derail me from my main mission. If any of you think that I am not doing my job as Moderator of this forum, please talk to me about it. If you think I am a bad DM, teach me what I lack so I can make things better.

I shall leave this closed until tonight, my time, to allow the other posters to get a word in. I will not wait longer than tonight. I hope that I have not abused my power today in holding everyone up in order to get this audit. Thanks for your help.

[ 04-16-2004, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: Larry_OHF ]