Disney Forbidding Distribution of Film That Criticizes Bush Pt II

[Chewbacca]

Correction:

By Chewy (me) The very pipeline that Bush allowed Unocal to negotiate with the Taliban about is back on.

This is incorrect, Unocal did not negotiate with the Taliban in early 2001. The State Department did.

In fact Unocal is not currently building a pipeline through Afganistan. Nobody is. The groundwork has been laid in the form of an agreement between the three nations involved, but as far as I can tell, a consortium to do the actual work as yet to be formed, publicly at least.

As to what Moore says about this in the film....
Well he does not claim that Bush was involved with the dealings with the Taliban in the mid nineties, except to mention that he was Governor of Texas when they visited Houston to negotiate the deal. In fact Moore recounts the same facts I have told in this thread about the deal.

That Unocal was a major part of a consortium that negoiated with the Taliban in the mid 90s to build a pipeline. That this deal was canceled and ties with the Taliban were cut off until early 2001 when the Bush adminstration had some of the Taliban in Washington to discuss, amongst other things, the pipeline. Unocal was not part of these negotiations nor is it claimed as such in the film. In fact no mention of Unocal is made after the part about the early 90s except to note the that the Afgan president and the U.S. special envoy are both former Unocal consultants.

Anyway, considering the close ties the new Afgan government has with Unocal and the groundwork for the pipeline has been made, it is not above imagining that it is probable Unocal will have something to do with the pipeline in the future though this is line of specualtion is absent from the film.

Too sum it up- Claims that Moore linked Bush with the mid 90s Unocal dealings with the Taliban are plainly wrong unless mentioning that Bush was governor at the time counts as making a link.

edit for grammar

[ 06-29-2004, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

[Davros]

Seems to me like he loves his country. He may have different ideals than the conservatives, but there is no grounds for accusing him to the contrary. I am confident Rush Limbaugh loves his country too - both are men with extreme ideals and little time for the other side, but neither can be CORRECTLY accused of not loving America.

I think it overly trite when people who don't think the same way as others are named as people who don't love their country, or as an-American. It's like the number one dismissive pigeon hole - what do we do twith this guy - we don't like him and we don't like his ideas - how about we tell everybody he doesn't love the country - that will work [img]tongue.gif[/img] .

[Aerich]

Well said, Davros! I'd like it if we spent more time trying to discuss and solve problems instead of playing politics.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by MagiK: I notice in there he said he made the movie because he "loves this country". If he loved this country, why would he have to Skew the facts and invent lies to promote it? I don't buy his story line any more than I believe he is from a poor working family in the Nations Auto capital. He has his motivations and reasons for doing things, but it doesnt appear to have anything to do with love of country. Just for giggles heres a counterpoint. http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723

Just who the hell do you think you are to question another American's patriotism? Not to mention it has never been proven that Moore skews facts or invents lies to promote his love of country.

In fact it has never been proven that he is a liar, though many have tried and it is, on the whole, questionable that he has broadly skewwed facts with intent to decive, though it seems some mistakes have been made.

He does what any opinion maker does- Uses the facts to show one-side of an issue.

The several instances that it can proven conclusivley that facts were wrong are minor inj my opinion, perhap even mere unacknowledged mistakes. Still even if Moore skewwed some facts, how does that make it right to call into question his love of country? It doesn't.


Tell the truth-you just dont like Moores politics. That is why you question his patriotism.

Making mistakes or skewwing facts is irrelevant to with regars to Moore's Patriotism. If that were the case the whole Bush adminstration doesn't love as well for their mistakes and fact skewwing with regards to the Iraq war.

I think your behavior-, not Moores show a true lack of some American values. Like making claims that people with who question or offer a perspctive you disagree with are terror supporters or dont love their country, or don't support their troops- is what I think is frankly well... Un-American.

Do you support American values like Free Speech, Free political expression and freedom to dissent? I'm just asking, some of the things you have said lead me to believe you do not entirely.


edit- Maybe you just don't realize you behavior seems this way. I hope this is the case.

edit 2- I realize it is somewhat ironic that one hand I am taking you to task for the opinion that Moore doesnt love his country and on the other I offer the opinion that some of your ideas are contrary to American ideals. I see the two things as different though.

For the record I am not questioning your Patriotism or love of country- I just have a very hard time understanding how you can make such claims based on the rationale provided.


Also-
I have no credit for the naysayers who wont or dont go see the film, but offer criticism and articles that are full of bluster but lacking substance like this one and others:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723

[ 06-29-2004, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

[pritchke]

I have a friend who hates Moore with a Passion. He wants to watch the film though but does not want to pay Moore any money. So what does he do? Buys a ticket for Shrek II and goes and watches Moores film.

[ 06-29-2004, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

[Chewbacca]

So anyway.... I went to see the film on Sunday. The show was sold-out and the crowd was quite diverse in age and ethnicty.


For the first time ever I was at a film with a police officer standing guard inside the theatre the entire time! When the guy in front of me as we entered the theatre ask the cop why he was there, the officer replied 'It's a controversial film'. Well I was glad that the cop was there in case some anti-Moore gunnut decided to show us 'liberals' the meaning of the word assault rifle.

*****SPOILERS********


Well I was quite impressed with the film. It was like a rollercoaster ride. Moving from serious to funny to ironic then back to serious and then funny again seamlessly. The music selection is excellent, and really captures the feel of each scene.

Like in BFC, my favorite parts were the perspective offered by people other than Moore. The soldiers, citizens, politicans, and people who were interviewed or filmed. Like it has been recounted in other articles about the film, I found the part near the end about the Mother from Flint who lost her son in Iraq in April 2003 to be the most moving and compelling.

I greatly enjoyed the scene where Moore rides in circles in front of the U.S. Capital in an ice cream truck reading the PATRIOT act over the loudspeaker. He does this in response to a representative explaining to him, after saying you better sit down, that the PATRIOT act and other leglislation simply is not read, in part or whole, by lawmakers before being passed in law.


My complaints about the film. Well, for one, think Moore spent too much time on the whole Saudi-Bush link. I think Some of that time could have been spent investigating other parts of the Bush presidency that are subject to question and may have hurt the nation rather than help, like his enviromental policies, ect. I guess from the perspectoive of a Bush critic there is just too much wrong with his policies to fit in just one movie.

[ 06-29-2004, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

[Barry the Sprout]

Originally posted by pritchke: I have a friend who hates Moore with a Passion. He wants to watch the film though but does not want to pay Moore any money. So what does he do? Buys a ticket for Shrek II and goes and watches Moores film.

When I saw Moore doing stand-up a while back he said he only gets a directors fee anyway - not a cut of the profits. As a result it doesn't matter financially for him if 2 people go see it or 2 million go. For him whats important is getting his views out there, and its not like he can't make the money on other stuff due to the celebrity it brings him. That was true of Bowling for Columbine at least, not sure if its true of Fahrenheit 911.

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Just who the hell do you think you are to question another American's patriotism? Not to mention it has never been proven that Moore skews facts or invents lies to promote his love of country. I the hell, am an American Citizen who is permitted by the owner of this site to state an opinion. I did not, in fact say Moore was one thing or another, I expressed an opinion that he MAY, be one thing or another. I also said that I did not buy his story. (that is a judgement on my part akin to an OPINION) I also stated MY opinion as to what I thought of his character. In fact it has never been proven that he is a liar, though many have tried and it is, on the whole, questionable that he has broadly skewwed facts with intent to decive, though it seems some mistakes have been made. In fact it has on several occasions. If you do not want a republican saying so to be proof, then try out Former NY Mayor Ed Koch (a democrat) who just today released his review of the movie. He flat out called Mikey a liar on the radio this morning. He does what any opinion maker does- Uses the facts to show one-side of an issue. The several instances that it can proven conclusivley that facts were wrong are minor inj my opinion, perhap even mere unacknowledged mistakes. Still even if Moore skewwed some facts, how does that make it right to call into question his love of country? It doesn't. I have yet to see any act or comment made by Mr. Moore that indicates he does anything for love of country. I havent seen anything but empty words. Words without deeds are...well pretty light in the proof department. Tell the truth-you just dont like Moores politics. That is why you question his patriotism. Actually not only do I not like Moores politics (which I make no secret about) I also do not like him the man...or at least the man he shows himself to be in his HBO specials (who knows what he is really like?)...where he's dressed like a bum ambushing Government Officials and trying to paint them as the ones doing the offending..when he is actually instigating the hostile reactions. I don't like his style, and I don't like the way he promotes his agenda. And I STILL have the right to express my opinions about him ..or at least untill he sics lawyers on me to shut me up...or Dan asks me not to post on the issue. Making mistakes or skewwing facts is irrelevant to with regars to Moore's Patriotism. If that were the case the whole Bush adminstration doesn't love as well for their mistakes and fact skewwing with regards to the Iraq war. I think your behavior-, not Moores show a true lack of some American values. Like making claims that people with who question or offer a perspctive you disagree with are terror supporters or dont love their country, or don't support their troops- is what I think is frankly well... Un-American. Well if I lack American Values..can you tell me what my values are..and wich country they belong to? Or at least point out valuse I demonstrate that are un-american? Do you support American values like Free Speech, Free political expression and freedom to dissent? I'm just asking, some of the things you have said lead me to believe you do not entirely. I don't recall ever having denied Mr. Moore his free Speech..nor advocating that he have his revoked. I believe I have exercised MY right to free speech to express my opinions about the man...but no where have I denied him or tried to deny him his rights. edit- Maybe you just don't realize you behavior seems this way. I hope this is the case. edit 2- I realize it is somewhat ironic that one hand I am taking you to task for the opinion that Moore doesnt love his country and on the other I offer the opinion that some of your ideas are contrary to American ideals. I see the two things as different though. I am still trying to figure out which of my ideals are not american. It would help if you could point them out for me. We have already discussed the fact that I have NOT denied or advocated denying anyone their right to free speech. For the record I am not questioning your Patriotism or love of country- I just have a very hard time understanding how you can make such claims based on the rationale provided. No problem, didn't see anywhere that you questioned patriotism at all....or Love of country. I just think that maybe you read what I think about moore and assumed I was saying something I wasn't. Also- I have no credit for the naysayers who wont or dont go see the film, but offer criticism and articles that are full of bluster but lacking substance like this one and others: http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723 I haven't seen the film and probably won't as I do not want to put Money in Moore's pocket. However when I have "facts" detailed from the movie listed out here in threads, I will not feel the slightest disinclined to comment on what is posted here, including supplying rebuttal information to the post.

[ 06-30-2004, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: quote: Originally posted by pritchke: I have a friend who hates Moore with a Passion. He wants to watch the film though but does not want to pay Moore any money. So what does he do? Buys a ticket for Shrek II and goes and watches Moores film.

When I saw Moore doing stand-up a while back he said he only gets a directors fee anyway - not a cut of the profits. As a result it doesn't matter financially for him if 2 people go see it or 2 million go. For him whats important is getting his views out there, and its not like he can't make the money on other stuff due to the celebrity it brings him. That was true of Bowling for Columbine at least, not sure if its true of Fahrenheit 911. [/QUOTE]

So Barry you take him at his word on the fact that he isn't getting any of the take...did anyone disclose financial documents to back it up?

My only real point here is that you choose to believe the things he says...while I do not.

Originally posted by Chewbacca: For the first time ever I was at a film with a police officer standing guard inside the theatre the entire time!

Just to put this into a context some people may understand better.
They did the same thing here when "Scarey Movie" opened. Seems there were controvertial themes in the movie that the government didn't want under age kids getting in to see

[ 06-30-2004, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]