Most powerful class - a minor rethink

[Klorox]

Hmmm... I've always favored F/M. Time Stop > Greater Whirlwind (gurgle).

[Andraste]

Naughty but true, Cleric HLA spells count as level 8, so you can put 3 of them in a mage chain-contingency. If you really have no shame, you can put 3 summon Devas in one (noting that chain-contingency ignores summoning limits), and have it go off on 'see enemy'.

Harm (which is normally not much use, since anything you want to use a high level cleric spell on has too low a THAC0 for a cleric to hit) is an automatic down to one hit-pointer under time stop.

I'm sure others can give some more fun combinations, that the makers of the rules never intended.

Hence, god of cheese.

And back to my original post. Only a half elf can be a mage/cleric multiclass(why not an elf, I wonder - anyone know?). A gnome can't be a mage/cleric, but can be a illusionist/cleric. Humans can be a dual-class, but don't get access to both HLAs. Dwarves and halflings, despite their saving throws, can't be any sort of mage.

So, comparing a half elf mage/cleric with a gnome illusionist/cleric, does the saving throws, 19 int, and extra time stop, make up for the loss of ADHW?

[ 05-04-2006, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Andraste ]

[Klorox]

Originally posted by Andraste: So, comparing a half elf mage/cleric with a gnome illusionist/cleric, does the saving throws, 19 int, and extra time stop, make up for the loss of ADHW?

Definitely. Firestorm (I think that's what it's called) is just as good as ADHW, and the same level (IIRC).

The one less point of WIS is not a big deal. IMO, the INT is more important (a 19 INT allows you to memorize an unlimited number of spells per level).

[Leslie]

My vote goes for F/M/C as the most powerful class. Obviously with TOB installed...

This is in my opinion the true Child of Bhaal - all 3 powerful classes in one character.

All the protections and the ability to prevent dispelling and warrior weapons and skills.

[Xen]

That's true but we all know that the Sorcerer is the most powerful.

[thetruth]

Other spell combinations for the Mage/Cleric :

- CC with 3x Firestorm or 3x Implosion (both spells ignore MR and the first is one of the most damaging spells in the game)
- CC with 3x Storm of Vengeance
- Spell Sequencer with 3x Holy Smites
- Spell Trigger with 3x Bolt of Glory (ignores MR - massive damage to Demons and Undeads)
- Combination of Doom and G.Malison
- Holy Power + Righteous Magic + Improved Haste + Black Blade of Disaster (with Crom Faeyr in the off hand) transforms the Mage Cleric in a fighter that deals amazing damage/round


As for the most powerful class, well I am not sure but the following are very powerful :


1) Berserker-Mage (13-28, with g.mastery in flails and 3* in dual wielding)
2) Sorcerer
3) Wild Mage (never played one but I have been "convinced" that is the class with the greatest potential)

[SixOfSpades]

Numbers crunched. I created a Multiplayer party and did some Shadowkeepering: All characters had their snapshots taken at 89,000, then 2,500,000, and finally 5,000,000 EXP. All of their stats except Constitution were 9s.

Dwarven Fighter with 18 CON
Level 7: 5/7/11/12/8
Level 18: 0/0/4/4/1
Level 28: 0/0/4/4/1

Dwarven Fighter with 19 CON
Level 7: 5/7/11/12/8
Level 18: 0/0/4/4/1
Level 28: 0/0/4/4/1

Dwarven Fighter with 12 CON (the minimum)
Level 7: 7/9/11/12/10
Level 18: 0/2/4/4/3
Level 28: 0/2/4/4/3

Dwarven Fighter/Cleric with 19 CON
Levels 6/6: 4/8/12/13/9
Levels 13/13: 0/2/6/5/3
Levels 18/19: 0/0/4/4/1

Gnomish Fighter/Cleric with 18 CON
Levels 6/6: 9/8/12/13/9
Levels 13/13: 5/2/6/5/3
Levels 18/19: 2/0/4/4/1

Gnomish Cleric/Illusionist with 18 CON
Levels 6/6: 9/4/11/13/5
Levels 13/13: 5/2/8/11/3
Levels 19/16: 2/0/5/8/1

As can be clearly seen, the Dwarven Fighters with high CON rule the day, although the Gnomish F/C is only slightly behind--he just takes forever to get there. In this set, the only character that can be said to have bad Saving Throws is, not coincidentally, the only one that is not a Warrior. You can see for yourself that the Cleric/Illusionist near the end of SoA has Saves comparable to a Dwarven Fighter with high CON at the very beginning of SoA.

What surprised me about this is that the Dwarven Fighters with 18 and 19 CON had identical Saves--I was sure that that extra point of CON counted for an extra Saves bonus. I'll do some more testing.

Fighters, Barbarians, and Rangers all use the same Saves table; but of course Rangers gain levels a bit slower, so their Saves take a bit longer to get there. Paladins also use the same table, but get -2 bonuses to all Saves right from the start; so their average Saves are roughly equivalent to a Dwarf, but since the Dwarf's bonuses are mostly in Save vs. Death and Save vs. Spells--the only two that matter--the Dwarf is still better. Halfling Warriors get the exact same bonuses as Dwarven Warriors.

Monks use the Cleric's Saving Throws table, but get additional bonuses on top of it. I've never played a Monk, but I hear their Saves are quite good, although I doubt many people ever get a chance to see them, under all that Magic Resistance.

Originally posted by Andraste: Only a half elf can be a mage/cleric multiclass(why not an elf, I wonder - anyone know?).

Traditionally, Elves cannot be Multiclassed Clerics because they are too devoted to their gods to split their devotion like that. (Yes, Aerie is illegal.) Personally, I think they should be allowed to be Druids, Fighter/Druids, and Fighter/Clerics (not to mention BARDS), but what do I know.

Originally posted by Klorox: Firestorm (I think that's what it's called) is just as good as ADHW

Incendiary Cloud does nice damage over a good area and duration, but roughly half the enemies worth using it on have some Fire resistance. Most importantly, I feel it pales in comparison to ADHW simply because it's not party-friendly: It's great for specific situations when you know ahead of time that you're going to use it, and have time to buff at least 1 party member up to be immune. . . but you can pop off an ADHW whenever the heck you want to, even when there are Innocents about. And the only people immune to Magic damage are (Tactics) Mages.

Fire Storm is a Level 7 Priest spell: Short duration, but very heavy damage per round, and most notably it ignores Magic Resistance.

Originally posted by Leslie: My vote goes for F/M/C as the most powerful class. Obviously with TOB installed... This is in my opinion the true Child of Bhaal

I'd go for F/M/C if only the EXP cap (and, following that, the HLA tables) would allow them to get Improved Alacrity. Without that, a spellcaster simply cannot essentially throw his entire spellbook at his enemies, not in the way a C/M (for example) can. I'd take a F/M and a C/M over two F/C/Ms any day. Tripleclassed characters do make good backup party members, just don't expect them to do much on their own.

And I'd say that the true Child of Bhaal would be a NE or LE Assassin->Cleric, Dualed after getting UAI to retain the ability to use Daggers. (Hang on. If I'm a god, and a Cleric, do I have to pray to myself for permission to grant myself spells?)

[Klorox]

Thanks for putting that one out there sixy. I stand corrected. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by Leslie: My vote goes for F/M/C as the most powerful class. Obviously with TOB installed... This is in my opinion the true Child of Bhaal - all 3 powerful classes in one character. All the protections and the ability to prevent dispelling and warrior weapons and skills.

No Lvl9 spells.

[Kyrvias]

(Hang on. If I'm a god, and a Cleric, do I have to pray to myself for permission to grant myself spells?)

Some things are better left to aged sages.