yet another muslim terror plot in the UK

[wellard]

Police in the UK have foiled another terror plot. Seemingly the plan was to capture a member of the UK armed forces and behead him live on the internet.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6315989.stm

The news is still breaking, but credit must go to the the police for stopping yet another islamfacist terror plot.

[PurpleXVI]

Indeed, it is good news that they have stopped this, if everything was executed more flawlessly than some of their previous anti-terror actions.

Still, as suitable as the world "Islamofascist" is(They are follows of Islam and they seem to have a fascist bent.) I just dislike the use of such words. It's very inflammatory and just a tiny bit exaggerated, at least in my opinion.

[robertthebard]

I read about this this morning, somewhere, but was looking for something else, or at something else...Nice to know one life has been saved. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, in all likelyhood, it's not a chicken.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by PurpleXVI: Still, as suitable as the world "Islamofascist" is(They are follows of Islam and they seem to have a fascist bent.) I just dislike the use of such words. It's very inflammatory and just a tiny bit exaggerated, at least in my opinion.

It's opinions like that the bolster the Islamofascists. We're too soft and forgiving, and their hard as nails society preys upon that.

How about Muslim Retards? Or simply Islamotards?

We are too open, accepting, and forgiving of these intolerant societies and their retarded miscreants.

[johnny]

The problem in Europe is growing day by day, i wonder how long it will take before people here open their eyes and recognize the threat that is staring them right in the face.

[Memnoch]

Let's try and ease up a bit on the namecalling, it doesn't really add to the quality of the discussion. I'm ok with using the term Islamofascists, because these guys are using a fascist ideology cloaked in religion. From what I can see it is a factually correct appellation for those particular radical groups. But Muslim retards or whatever is pretty immature, playground stuff. I'd hope we could elevate ourselves above that in discussion.

I posted about this at the cricket and football forum I moderate (ESPNSTAR.com - we have no religious moratorium as people there are able to carry on with discussions and disagreements with no hard feelings and don't feel like they have to play the "get the last word" game or "who can diss the other the most" even though they're on average 16-30 years old ).

I'll try and post my thoughts here without getting into detail about Islam, so as not to violate our moratorium. In my opinion it's because the religion of Islam has been hijacked by fanatical mullahs, many of who don't really have any formal religious training other than what they gave themselves (as Islam has no clergy). People like this guy Abu Hamza, who until recently ran the North Finsbury mosque in London until he was deported for hate crimes:

Suicide bombings Hamza says it is his followers' destiny to become "shaheed" (martyrs) and bring jihad (holy war) to "your own door". "We ask Allah to make us mujahideen (holy warriors). We ask Allah to make us shaheed. Our immediate duty now is to correct our own homeland. So let us open our eyes, let us not go for jihad which is far away from our countries. "Although it is good it is not as good as you do in your own door. You don't have to travel thousands and thousands of miles to become a shaheed - you can be shaheed right on your own doorstep. May Allah open our eyes for what's good for us - so we don't waste our Muslim blood far away." Forging passports "I don't have papers ... you're all clever, you can make papers for yourself. This is also a part of jihad, this is part of the preparation." On world domination "The real weapons of mass destruction are the desire for martyrdom. Millions of you are ready to be shaheed. Half a million martyrdom shaheed is enough for Muslims to control the whole of earth forever. In the end of the day, Islam must control earth, whether we like it or not." On Israel "All the Israelis are fighters. That's why anybody over 15 is a warrior and he should be killed ... It's about exposing these Zionist Jews who are now doing the work of Hitler against ourselves and the nation." On September 11 "Wherever you are, death will catch up with you - even if you are in high elevated safe towers. "Where is their Superman? Who is to blame? The American government and their pressure cooker policy which exploded in their faces." He adds later: "These scenes are going to repeat." Click here

You know what this guy used to be? He used to be a nightclub bouncer, for goodness sakes. But because he's charismatic and seen as being "cool" and sticking it up the hierarchy and talks about cool stuff like jihad and holy war and all the rest of it, he influences heaps of young people, many of whom are already disaffected and disassociated because they aren't integrated (particularly in many parts of Europe). Because there are no formal clergy or clergy structure in Islam, anybody can be a mullah or expert on Islam - just make sure you have a real loud voice. Other examples? Omar Bakri Mohammed, Omar Brooks and Anjem Choudary.

I repeat that the problem with Islam is that MAINSTREAM Muslims (especially the mainstream mullahs) choose to disown these people rather than engaging them and refuting the rubbish they're spouting. By closing their eyes to the problem and saying "it's not a Muslim problem because these people aren't Muslim", they are helping to propagate these radical extremist ideas.

[ 02-01-2007, 07:14 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

[wellard]

That was an intresting post Memnoch, I never knew that there was no formal clergy structure in Islam. I too prefer the Islamofascists term both for the reasons you gave and it also helps differ from normal muslims who are suffering because of this evil crap.

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by wellard: That was an intresting post Memnoch, I never knew that there was no formal clergy structure in Islam. I too prefer the Islamofascists term both for the reasons you gave and it also helps differ from normal muslims who are suffering because of this evil crap.

If I converted to Islam tomorrow, I could study the Quran and call myself a mullah - nobody has to make me one. I could go to a mosque and start preaching if I wanted to. It's very informal - particularly in those uneducated and illiterate tribal areas of Afghanistan, Pakistan and parts of the Middle East. In those areas often the bloke with the loudest voice, the longest beard and the most charisma will end up being the "mullah".

In Europe, they tend to be the radicals with the loudest voices and the ones with a cult of personality. Because the moderates tend to be quiet, because, well, that's what they see Islam as being - quiet, peaceful and non-confrontational. This is what I mean when I say that Islam is being hijacked by a fascist minority.

IT's been interesting having discussions about this with Muslims at that cricket and football site, because I've had the opportunity to speak to mainstream Muslims and solicit their views on how they feel about this minority who are hijacking their religion. It was the first time that I had had the opportunity to speak to Muslims about these issues (I didn't know too many in OZ). Plus I've gotten to meet a few at school and we've had some interesting debates.

Funny thing is, I've taken Timber's persona and have challenged them pretty strongly on a number of key beliefs on their religion, as well as the whole societal impact, and they've been pretty patient in helping me understand their perspectives. I wouldn't quite characterise these particular individuals as Muslim-retards, but that's just me. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 02-01-2007, 03:27 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

[johnny]

Could't it be that the reason why the "moderate" clerics don't condemn the loud ones is that they quietly agree with them, at least to some extend ?

Research learns that an awful lot of the muslims in Europe would welcome a life under Sharia rule, which goes directly against everything we in the west stand for. You can only wonder why on earth they would come and live amongst such a "godforsaken" people such as us western infidels. Seems to me that they are completely out of place here. Would it be weird if i say that "Apartheid" wasn't such a bad thing after all ?

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by johnny: Could't it be that the reason why the "moderate" clerics don't condemn the loud ones is that they quietly agree with them, at least to some extend ? Research learns that an awful lot of the muslims in Europe would welcome a life under Sharia rule, which goes directly against everything we in the west stand for. You can only wonder why on earth they would come and live amongst such a "godforsaken" people such as us western infidels. Seems to me that they are completely out of place here. Would it be weird if i say that "Apartheid" wasn't such a bad thing after all ?

It would be weird to say that apartheid is a good thing, I think, after the world fought so hard to eradicate it in South Africa.

As for your first question, I can only speak from my own personal experience - your experience may be different. Personally, I don't see the point in putting all Muslims in the same basket - that's generalising and is no better than what some of these fanatical mullahs are going by generalising Westerners. I prefer to judge each person as an individual, whatever their religion is - but that's just me. I haven't had the experiences with Muslims that you might have had, which is why I'm a bit more chilled out.

My understanding is that most of these are the young (16-to-24yos), European-born, 2nd-or-3rd-generation Muslims (usually male) who want to live under sharia - 1 in 8 in the UK according to some poll. Their parents (and in some cases grandparents) feel more attuned to life in the West than they do.

Young Muslims favour Sharia laws LONDON: Evidence that Britain is beset by a growing societal rift emerged yesterday with a poll showing large minorities of young Muslims in favour of Islamic law and inspired by political Islam. One in eight young Muslims supports Al Qaeda, according to the Populus poll, in findings likely to stoke a debate about Muslims' place in Britain that has held centre stage since the July 7, 2005 suicide bombings. Munira Mirza, whose independent Policy Exchange think-tank commissioned the poll, claimed the results suggested that two decades of British government policy was to blame for sharpening divisions between Muslims and non-Muslims. The rift is partly "a result of multi-cultural policies implemented since the 1980s emphasising difference at the expense of shared national identity and divided people along ethnic, religious and cultural lines," Mirza said. Since a fierce debate erupted last year over whether Muslim women should wear the full-face veil, government ministers have stressed shared values of fairness and democracy. According to the Internet and phone poll of 1,003 Muslims, 37 per cent of 16-to-24-year-olds said they would prefer to live under Sharia law compared to just 17pc of the over-55s. The same number of young Muslims said they would prefer to send their children to Islamic state schools while 74pc said they preferred Muslim women to wear the hijab headscarf in public. Among the over-55s, the figures were 19pc and 28pc on the same questions. A small overall minority (seven pc) said they "admire organisations like Al Qaeda that are prepared to fight the West". The figure was highest among younger people (13pc) but just three pc among older people. In general, more over-55s felt they had as much, if not more, in common with non-Muslims in Britain than with Muslims abroad (71pc), but that fell to 62pc among 16-to-24-year-olds. Mirza said: "There is clearly conflict within British Islam between a moderate majority that accepts the norms of Western democracy and a growing minority that does not. "Religiosity amongst younger Muslims is not about following their parents' cultural traditions but rather their interest in religion is more politicised." http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/Story...&IssueID=29316

Angry young men, basically.

[ 02-01-2007, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]