3rd edition D&D campaign idea...just looking for some feedback

[Nerull]

I have been batting around this idea for a new campaign world for months, but am finally wanting to write it all out and get things working on it. Here is the basic premise.

There are no gods. Instead, clerics worship the philosophies of good, evil, law, and chaos (these four factors tend to polarize things in the D&D universe, so it would make sense that these philosophies, without the influence of gods, would gather enough faith/power to provide spells to clerics). Druids and rangers worship the force of nature (leaving them essentially unchanged). The idea I toyed with is that there once were gods, but this is ages after the big war between them and their enemies, leaving no survivors (similar to the final battle in Norse mythology). Such things as demons, celestials, etc. still exist, so my justification is that they are survivors of that battle, living on the other planes.

However, the clerical concept raises some issues in my mind:

1. What would a world be like with no gods? At least in Dragonlance there is memory of the original gods. In this one, the war was ages ago, and no one remembers the old gods. What sociological changes would come about in a world where people either worship nature (and in the afterlife expect to be united with it) or they worship a philosophy (in which case, they can expect to go to a place with denizens of similar philosophical beliefs, and eventually earn a place as a celestial, demon, etc.)? People tend to "humanize" their deities, giving a symbol for people to identify with. Would the world be similar to the standard D&D world, or would it evolve completely different? What major changes would the players see when they started playing the campaign?
2. Tying into the above issue, what role would extraplanar beings play? I have pretty much decided that they will be incapable of obtaining godhood, no matter how many worshippers they gather (divine power is innate among the prime material inhabitants, with those who have a strong link to this being the ones to become either clerics or druids). An idea I have toyed with is the "symbiotic" relationship. There is power to be gained from having servitors on the Prime, especially since they have the divine power, so powerful extraplanar creatures would be interested in starting "cults" to gain followers who would advance their agendas. Looking at #1 above, clerics might need a face to attach to their beliefs. Thus, it would make sense that partnerships would evolve, so that even though clerics do not get their spells from these entities, they would still throw their support at them (opening up justification for prestige classes similar to the ones in the Book of Vile Darkness with the various thrall and disciple prestige classes). A real question might arise from this: would people know that there are philosophies at work? They might worship these beings as gods, but since they symbolize certain alignments, their worship might power the philosophies (thus, the power of their faith gets funneled out to the philosophy instead of the object of the worship). Finally, if the philosophies are attaching faces to their beliefs, then what about the force of nature? While druids can simply point to the natural world, it helps to have the living symbol present. Maybe the elemental beings, in this case?
3. How would the classes be revised? Clerics of Good and Evil can use the normal class, as I could see them using positive and negative energy (respectively) as a part of their faith. However, in such a case, I would probably add the Good and Evil designators to spells like the Cure/Inflict spells, etc. to prevent the opposite alignment from using them (good would have access to positive energy, evil would have access to negative energy). However, how about clerics of Law and Chaos? If positive and negative energy are attached to good and evil, then why would they use only one of them (one of the things that I hate about the cleric is that they must choose to use one or the other if they are neutral). I could just change the rule and allow them to do both, but I was thinking about scrapping their ability to turn undead and to spontaneously cast. I was considering giving them an extra domain (with the special ability) and an extra domain spell per spell level (2 per level, instead of 1) to compensate for the missing abilities. What about the paladin and blackguard? It would make sense to have a divine warrior type as a class (they are also in touch with their philosophy, but choose a more martial path), but it seems like there would then have to be 4 different versions of the class, one for each of the four philosophies. Would it be a full class (like the paladin) or a prestige class (like the blackguard)? What would be the changes in their abilities? I know the special mount/followers are out (they are gifts from the gods), and I am thinking of easing the restrictions to compensate (for example, paladin does not get the warhorse, but can be any good alignment and can multiclass freely). What would the various abilities of these four classes/prestige classes be?

Sorry for the long post, but I just wanted to get my thoughts out. Any input on this would be greatly appreciated, as I had no idea when I took this up just how many factors I would have to consider.

Thank you in advance for any posts.

[Stratos]

1. If these philosophies are strong enough to grant spells to clerics then one can argue that they (the philosophies) almost have been given life on their own by their worshippers. Perhaps not your average Forgotten Realms diety but some kind of entity, a "living" symbol of that very philosophy. That's how some people in real life choose to view God or a pantheon of gods/godesses. Either that or the power of the clerics really comes from within him and is "awakened" by the worshipping.

2. Is there, besides power, any differenses between a mortal and a diety in D&D. Is there some kind of threshold one must pass, some kind of requirement to become a diety and who decides that? Even if the extra-planar beings wouldn't be able to ascend to godhood they would, if they were worshipped, basically take the place of the old gods.
It's sounds a bit strange that the power of the faith gets funneled to a philosophy instead of the EP being when it is they who are worshipped. A lot of power seems to be going to the philosophies and as such they are a bit vague as to what they really are. If you put much effort and time into worshipping it would be long before people would put faces on the philosophies and perhaps directly connect them to the EP beings. New "gods" would arise from this.

3. You could use designators to certain spells but if evil clerics can't cast healing spells etc. and instead concentrate on some more offensive/destructive spells then they become quite different from a good cleric. Whereas the good one would heal and do things that most people associate with the cleric class, the evil would probably have more offensive spells and be more of a divine combat spellcaster like the druid.
I don't know about the law/chaos thing but perhaps a chaotic cleric could have access to some confusion and charm like spells that his more lawful collegue wouldn't and the lawful one had access to more protection spells.

Hope that this few words has shedded some light on things.

[ 07-04-2003, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: Stratos ]

[Nerull]

Originally posted by Stratos: 1. If these philosophies are strong enough to grant spells to clerics then one can argue that they (the philosophies) almost have been given life on their own by their worshippers. Perhaps not your average Forgotten Realms diety but some kind of entity, a "living" symbol of that very philosophy. That's how some people in real life choose to view God or a pantheon of gods/godesses.

That's true, I didn't think of that. People would identify with the philosophies themselves, in that case. After centuries of having the philosophies being the primary divine influence, people probably wouldn't think twice about it. They would simply see the clerics as the representatives of these forces. I remember reading the Elric series years ago, and the relationship between Order and Chaos in that comes to mind. There are entities that are extraplanar representatives of these forces, but ultimately they are just seen as Order and Chaos, the primordial forces of the universe. The four philosophies would be seen the same way, and the extraplanar entities would simply been seen as embodiments of these philosophies. The elemental creatures would probably be seen as the embodiments of the force of Nature.

What would evolve would be different philosophical orders, similar to an Eastern feel. Each order would probably have a prestige class (or classes) associated with it. Each one would probably have several domains associated with it, along with a favored weapon (or weapons) for that order. Thus, it would act almost like its own religion, with its own "interpretation" on how that philosophy would best be served.

Originally posted by Stratos: You could use designators to certain spells but if evil clerics can't cast healing spells etc. and instead concentrate on some more offensive/destructive spells then they become quite different from a good cleric. Whereas the good one would heal and do things that most people associate with the cleric class, the evil would probably have more offensive spells and be more of a divine combat spellcaster like the druid. I don't know about the law/chaos thing but perhaps a chaotic cleric could have access to some confusion and charm like spells that his more lawful collegue wouldn't and the lawful one had access to more protection spells.

That was kind of the thing I was envisioning when I thought about the division of the cleric class; the good guys would be the healers and protectors, while evil guys would be the destroyers. That fits with the using of positive and negative energy. I could just leave the spells as they are, which would allow good clerics to use destructive energies (and evil guys to heal) just like regular 3rd edition rules. This would also be okay, since they already specialize in using either positive or negative energy.

The lawful and chaotic clerics are a sticky point. It would make sense that they have granted abilities instead of extra spell slots. I think charm and compulsion spells would fall more on the lawful side, while spells that protect against such effects (and confusion spells) would fall on the chaos side.

That still does not help much with the paladin. The cleric is a minor overhaul, while the paladin is a major one.

Thanks, Statos! That does help a lot! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Luvian]

Actually, I have a 2nd edition D&D book somewhere in which they talked about priests that venerated phisolophies, just as you suggested, and it worked out well.

Maybe it was the priest's handbook, I don't remember.

[Nerull]

Originally posted by Luvian: Actually, I have a 2nd edition D&D book somewhere in which they talked about priests that venerated phisolophies, just as you suggested, and it worked out well. Maybe it was the priest's handbook, I don't remember.

Yes, I have that book, The Complete Priest's Handbook. Ever since I ready about forces and philosophies in there, that seed as been planted in the back of my mind (years now). I have read through the 3rd edition Deities and Demigods and its discussion re-stoked my interest. I just want to make it a reality now. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Nerull]

Hate to revive the old thread, but I have been working on this between my hectic schedule (work has been nasty lately). Here is what I have decided to do with lawful and chaotic clerics:

Lawful:
Instead of turn undead, they have the supernatural ability to bestow a -2 divine penalty to Will saves to all enemies in a 60' burst. There would be no saving throw, it would last for 3 rounds + 1 round/5 class levels, and would be usable a number of times per day equal to 3 + Charisma modifier.

Instead of spontaneous casting cure spells, they can spontaneously cast the following spells at the appropriate level:
0-Guidance (instead of Cure/Inflict Minor Wounds)
1-Command (instead of Cure/Inflict Light Wounds)
2-Hold Person (instead of Cure/Inflict Moderate Wounds)
3-Invisibility Purge (instead of Cure/Inflict Serious Wounds)
4-Discern Lies (instead of Cure/Inflict Critical Wounds)

Chaotic:
Instead of turn undead, they have the supernatural ability to bestow a +2 divine bonus to Will saves to all allies (including the cleric) in a 60' burst. It would last for 3 rounds + 1 round/5 class levels, and would be usable a number of times per day equal to 3 + Charisma modifier.

Instead of spontaneous casting cure spells, they can spontaneously cast the following spells at the appropriate level:
0-Resistance (instead of Cure/Inflict Minor Wounds)
1-Random Action (instead of Cure/Inflict Light Wounds)
2-Remove Paralysis (instead of Cure/Inflict Moderate Wounds)
3-Dispel Magic (instead of Cure/Inflict Serious Wounds)
4-Freedom of Movement (instead of Cure/Inflict Critical Wounds)

Please note that I have not received the 3.5 books yet (I have them on order), and I am aware that they added new spells for the clerics to spontaneously cast (mass healing spells; I would alter the lists based on those changes when received). What do you think about the above?

However, I have no idea with the paladin/blackguard/etc. Essentially, I will have 4 "holy warrior" classes as standard (not prestige) classes (thinking of keeping Paladin for good and Blackguard for evil, and naming the lawful ones Justicars and chaotic ones Anarchs). The detect opposite alignment and the smite opposite alignment abilities will remain the same, since they make sense, as will Divine Grace (named differently for each class, probably). The turn undead would be the same as a cleric of the appropriate alignment (with the lower level, of course); lawful and chaotic see above. However, what to do with Aura of Courage, Lay on Hands, Divine Health, Remove Disease, and Special Mount? I think I am going to remove the Special Mount (defined as a gift from the gods, which do not exist in this game) and lowering both alignment restriction (just be the appropriate alignment (good, evil, lawful, or chaotic)) and allow them to multiclass freely. I would think each would have a specific Aura ability, but what? And the other abilities? The Paladin would be simple enough, but the others are tougher (converting Blackguard to full 20 level class and creating lawful and chaotic paladins). Any suggestions?

[Luvian]

Interesting.

[Rikard_OHF]

First of all i must personally say i really dont like the concepts of good evil law and chaos at all in DnD

having said that i do think it's possible to build a campaign with these forces instead of gods.
Clerics instead of gaining power from worshipping gods, could gain power directly from the positive or negative energy plane. Normal humans would follow clerics they think are powerfull or because they agree with the cleric's stand in the battle of good and evil. That would be your religion
The classes wouldnt have to be changed much, but i do agree that you should restrict access to positive and negative energy based on allignment

[Deejax]

About the spells used by the different philosophies:

Why not use a "heroes of might and magic IV" type spell system. Imagine Schools (or spheres in this case) of spells that are shared by the various philosophies. Good/evil or Chaos/Lawful would not share spells but Good/lawful could share the healing spells and Chaos/evil the destruction spells. Maybe you could create 8 shools: four shared and four unique? Or just four Speres (I should stop using "Schools" when talking about priestly magic) where any philosophy is prohibited from using the opposite sphere?
Typical Lawful/Chaos type spell would be things like calm or enrage humanoids (ooh, Morrowind reference) or clarify/obscure.

About the paladins: A chaos paladin could be a thieving character. Bit like the religion of Mask perhaps? While lawful paladins are more in the direction of the inquisition. Important for these classes is the indifference to good or evil. For them it is not a considiration. Lawful should mean strict and following the rules. And I mean the letter, not the spirit, of laws, rules and regulations.

As you point out in 3, I think the restrictions should be loosened. The only important aspect of a paladin is his "goodness" for a Chaos paladin only his "chaoticness" (is this a word? Don't think so). A paladin has to be good, no matter whether he is chaotic/neutral/lawful.

About the EP beings:
Maybe they like a philosophy and decide to further its cause by guiding the believers. Or they just like the influence they can get by guiding these mortals? And maybe a bit of divine power?

I agree with Stratos that if the philosophy is strong enough, the difference between it and a religion/deity disappears. The only question that remains is whether there is some sort of incarnation of the philosophy. Maybe the EP beings can act as avatars?

Man, these posts get long. Feels a bit like ranting. And it is just a lot of talking about my thoughts, don't know if they are in the least bit usefull. Feel free to ignore any of them.

[Rikard_OHF]

However, I have no idea with the paladin/blackguard/etc. Essentially, I will have 4 "holy warrior" classes as standard (not prestige) classes (thinking of keeping Paladin for good and Blackguard for evil, and naming the lawful ones Justicars and chaotic ones Anarchs). The detect opposite alignment and the smite opposite alignment abilities will remain the same, since they make sense, as will Divine Grace (named differently for each class, probably). The turn undead would be the same as a cleric of the appropriate alignment (with the lower level, of course); lawful and chaotic see above. However, what to do with Aura of Courage, Lay on Hands, Divine Health, Remove Disease, and Special Mount? I think I am going to remove the Special Mount (defined as a gift from the gods, which do not exist in this game) and lowering both alignment restriction (just be the appropriate alignment (good, evil, lawful, or chaotic)) and allow them to multiclass freely. I would think each would have a specific Aura ability, but what? And the other abilities? The Paladin would be simple enough, but the others are tougher (converting Blackguard to full 20 level class and creating lawful and chaotic paladins). Any suggestions?

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I think you should turn the Blackguard into a whole new class (take the paladin class and the blackguard prestige class as reverance) and make it possible to switch between those (like a fallan paladin who can become a blackguard with extra bonusses)

A good lawfull character would be a Samurai, who follows the exact codes set by the court of law. another possibility of law character is a monk, but i think a monk doesnt really fit in witha blackguard and a paladin. possible chaos characters could be a bard or an swashbuckler fighter/rogue kinda class