Secret US Jails

[Sir Degrader]

Grrr, this pisses me off. Not that the jails exist, but that someone is willing to expose them.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/inter...237589,00.html

[shamrock_uk]

Heh, well the fact that they exist pisses me off [img]tongue.gif[/img] I think that articles like these are the one thing that redeems a paper which otherwise annoys the hell out of me for being so left-wing and liberal.

That story is a year old anyway, but ties in with this one about concerns raised by human rights agencies about possibly dozens of Abu Ghraibs. Also this latest story about how Bush is attempting to weasel his way around anti-torture laws.

My personal opinion is that an administration which approves of torture, acts outside both the spirit and arguably the letter of the law when it suits and also acts in contradiction to America's founding values (whilst preaching them to the rest of the world) needs publicly shaming.

Keeping things like this secret would also deny the American public a chance to make an informed opinion about the administration and its policies - this is not acceptable when trying to run a decent democracy.

Not to mention, we in the rest of the world would also prefer to make informed decisions about these issues - if the claims in the article are true (and to my knowledge there has never been denial) then the Guardian does us all a service.

[ 11-03-2005, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

[Sir Degrader]

Well, the only reason I chose the guardian is because it was a website, I'm not sure how to source TV shows (CBC evening news was where I first heard the news).

The fact remains that anti-torture laws are, in my opinion, useless. A person does NOT have the right to withold information from law enforcement. Even if they are arrested by the mossad/gestapo/whatever, I dont give a damn if he's innocent or guilty. If a government is willing to torture someone, then what that individual was suspected of doing must be terrible indeed. Seeing as how people aren't just picked off the streets, especially in America, I can't see the purpose of witholding a valuable method of information extraction.

/rant

[ 11-03-2005, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: Sir Degrader ]

[Morgeruat]

The problem with torture is well known, at some point most people will just give up and tell the torturer whatever they think the torturer wants to hear, making it reasonably unlikely that the information is reliable. Humanitarian concerns aside the chance of bad info is a good enough reason not to use it (just as it's enough to keep lie detector tests inadmissible in court).

[Chewbacca]

I think it is rather cowardly to put and hide our secret jails in other countries. Fear of Constitution. If it's good enough for Americans to be doing, then it's good enough to be done in America.

[Timber Loftis]

First off, I think that some basic principles of our constitution apply to non-citizens, including the basic rights of habeas corpus and the opportunity for a trial where you can present evidence and confront your accuser.

I don't mind if the jails are secret, or in other countries. I do mind if our government, as it does, keeps "combatants" or any other type of ALLEGED criminal indefinately without a trial.

I'm all for military tribunals and the like. So long as the accused gets a lawyer, access to the evidence against him, and the opportunity to defend himself in a fair tribunal.

These are the bigger issues that concern me -- not whether the jails are secret or not.

[Lucern]

Originally posted by Sir Degrader: The fact remains that anti-torture laws are, in my opinion, useless. A person does NOT have the right to withold information from law enforcement. Even if they are arrested by the mossad/gestapo/whatever, I dont give a damn if he's innocent or guilty. If a government is willing to torture someone, then what that individual was suspected of doing must be terrible indeed. Seeing as how people aren't just picked off the streets, especially in America, I can't see the purpose of witholding a valuable method of information extraction. /rant

I researched/worked with torture survivors. In most countries, torture is actually just state terror to maintain power. Therefore, in most cases people aren't picked up for anything terrible. Make no mistake, it isn't random, it's always for a reason. Religion, party affiliation, physical deformity, independent wealth or land holding, ethnicity, 'race', or voicing opinions are all things I can tell you people I've met have been tortured over. In a lot of cases, I can just about promise you, you'd be ashamed of yourself if you didn't do what the tortured person did to get into that position. Cherry-picked example: a man who ran a home for the elderly was asked to send the food that came his way in the direction of the army. His choice was whether or not to starve elderly people. He suffered the worst torture I've ever heard of when he refused.

Besides, Morge is absolutely correct. Try to get information by torture and you'll get the answer that stops the torture. If the law enforcement agents don't know the information they're trying to extract, how are they going to know they're not being lied to? If the law enforcement agents know the answer, then it's torture for repression. Thing about this is...torture is almost never about interrogation.

The US signed (and wrote most of) the UN Convention Against Torture in the context of this norm of torture as repression, but you can bet it covers the interrogation room as well. Obviously, some in current positions of power in the US want to change the rules. (Though it's certainly not as if the rules have been followed in spirit for at least 2 decades).

Also consider the countries that these jails are in...what are they getting out of it? I don't think I could be happy with any answer to that question.

Nothing justifies torture IMO. The movie script time-bomb scenario has never happened. It might be good to have a contingency plan in case the absurd happens, but to support anything that facilitates torture is to support a system of violence against hundreds of thousands of people in any given year for the propping up of governments that by all rights shouldn't exist.

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Originally posted by Sir Degrader: If a government is willing to torture someone, then what that individual was suspected of doing must be terrible indeed.

Like, uh, what? Resisting the jihad? Not for nothing, but our enemies torture, too. If we're okaying torture, logically we're saying it's okay to torture US troops that are captured. And for some strange reason that plain don't sit right with me.

[Lanesra]

Originally posted by Sir Degrader: A person does NOT have the right to withold information from law enforcement.

Rightttt!

Originally posted by Sir Degrader: [qb] I dont give a damn if he's innocent or guilty.

Okayyyyy!

Originally posted by Sir Degrader: If a government is willing to torture someone, then what that individual was suspected of doing must be terrible indeed.

I understand Saddam used the same line of reasoning.

One last thing - as the article is nearly 18 months old how does it qualify as "Current Events"?

Perhaps you just missed a few smileys out here !

[ 11-04-2005, 05:34 AM: Message edited by: Lanesra ]

[Timber Loftis]

Yeah, I'm wondering if there was a smiley missing too. This...

If a government is willing to torture someone, then what that individual was suspected of doing must be terrible indeed.

happens to be one of the least thoughtful things I've ever heard. Dude! What government guilty of torture has EVER been able to justify it based on the wrongs of the tortured victim (or "Party" if you prefer). Any time torture has ever been used by the state, it has turned into a capricious and vindictive device in short order -- a means of allowing our government to become flat out oppressors.

You need to learn to trust your government less. No mode of government will ever work if the governed aren't smart enough to constantly distrust it, police it, watchdog it, and often neuter and spay it.