Hundreds of thousands march in Washington

[pritchke]

Mr. Bush has signed a ban on what critics call partial-birth abortion, and the first federal law to endow a fetus with legal rights distinct from the pregnant woman.

http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/s...BNStory/Front/

So, let's see... these women are upset cause now their doctors aren't allowed to pull a premature baby halfway from the womb, stab it in the back of the neck, and suck out it's brains while it's arms and feet flail?

Or are they upset cause now if a person kills a pregnant chick s/he's liable for the deaths of two? Or if s/he attacks a chick and causes a miscarriage s/he may be charged with murdering the baby?

I wish Canada would follow suit on some of these laws. There is no need to perform partial birth abortion. There are other methods of abortion. And if anyone attacked my significant other and caused the miscarriage of my baby, I would be out for blood. I'd want to see them pay, cause, born or not, they would have taken my baby away from me.

I understand the need for abortion, after all women are too stupid to figure out where babies come from or how to keep from getting pregnant if they dont want a baby, so there is, of course a huge need for the government santioned murder of thousands of babies annually. (Sarcasim Alert!!!! I don't think women are stupid)

Im so tired of people bringing "coat hanger" abortions into this frey. This is not the year 1970 where birth control was not so advanced. There is the pill, condoms, IUD's, Norplant, Spermacidal foams and jellies, etc today. If you dont want to have a baby, use birth control, (use 2 or even 3 different types at the same time if you really dont want a baby) or better yet, dont have sex. (because anyone with more than a 5th grade education knows that everytime you have sex, there is a possibility of the woman getting pregnant) After all, nobody ever died from lack of sex, but thousands of children are dying every year because of abortion.

As has been said, society is judged by the way it treats its most helpless citizens, and and a baby in the womb is as helpless as they come. Some day this society is going to be viewed as barbaric as the nazi's with the concentrations camps, the southern united states with slaves etc because of abortion. There was a time when these people were not considered people by those in power. Do you see any similarities? After all the baby in the womb is a live human. Alive because Alive is defined as changing and growing...And a human because its nothing else.

What I find truly amazing is that we have, in this day and age, denegrated to the level that the only thing that makes a person a baby or a "fetus" is its mothers opinion. Wasn't there a time when black people were not people, women and live children were considered property by their husbands/fathers? Dogs and cats and cattle are given more respect than unborn babies. Yes this is truly amazing.

[ 04-27-2004, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

[Barry the Sprout]

Originally posted by pritchke: Im so tired of people bringing "coat hanger" abortions into this frey. This is not the year 1970 where birth control was not so advanced. There is the pill, condoms, IUD's, Norplant, Spermacidal foams and jellies, etc today. If you dont want to have a baby, use birth control, (use 2 or even 3 different types at the same time if you really dont want a baby) or better yet, dont have sex. (because anyone with more than a 5th grade education knows that everytime you have sex, there is a possibility of the woman getting pregnant) After all, nobody ever died from lack of sex, but thousands of children are dying every year because of abortion. What I find truly amazing is that we have, in this day and age, denegrated to the level that the only thing that makes a person a baby or a "fetus" is its mothers opinion. Wasn't there a time when black people were not people, women and live children were considered property by their husbands/fathers? Dogs and cats and cattle are given more respect than unborn babies. Yes this is truly amazing.

You are absolutely right in some ways - birth control is readily available, so why do lots of women (and it is lots, not just a few) want to be able to get abortions? Why are women pregnant when they don't want to be pregnant? Your paragraph about women being stupid was obviously a joke, but that seems to be the mainstream view of why women get pregnant when they don't want to be - they were too stupid to do anything about it. Well, as I'm sure most of us are aware it takes two people to make a baby and thats hardly ever mentioned. Women don't have babies they don't want because they're too stupid to work out what you do with a contraceptive pill, but because for some reason they had unprotected sex with some guy and now, presumably, regret that.

So what kind of society are we living in when thousands of women every year get pregnant because their other half lied to them, or misled them, or simply pressured them in order to get them to have unprotected sex, yet once they try to remedy that situation they're told its their fault in the first place! That they shouldn't have been so stupid. Lets not kid ourselves, abortion is as much an issue of liberation for women as is equal pay and hiring conditions. It is a clear case of the mainstream society taking a particular problem thats at the very least 50% due to men (and probably quite a lot more - lets face it) and proclaim that women can deal with the consequences. Even those pro-choice seem to often portray it as if its granting a boon to the women in question, as if its a method of curbing poverty somehow, when in fact its often due to the poverty and discrimination that women want to get the abortion anyway.

[Timber Loftis]

I'm not against abortion, I'm just against partial birth abortion.

[pritchke]

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: quote: Originally posted by pritchke: Im so tired of people bringing "coat hanger" abortions into this frey. This is not the year 1970 where birth control was not so advanced. There is the pill, condoms, IUD's, Norplant, Spermacidal foams and jellies, etc today. If you dont want to have a baby, use birth control, (use 2 or even 3 different types at the same time if you really dont want a baby) or better yet, dont have sex. (because anyone with more than a 5th grade education knows that everytime you have sex, there is a possibility of the woman getting pregnant) After all, nobody ever died from lack of sex, but thousands of children are dying every year because of abortion. What I find truly amazing is that we have, in this day and age, denegrated to the level that the only thing that makes a person a baby or a "fetus" is its mothers opinion. Wasn't there a time when black people were not people, women and live children were considered property by their husbands/fathers? Dogs and cats and cattle are given more respect than unborn babies. Yes this is truly amazing.

You are absolutely right in some ways - birth control is readily available, so why do lots of women (and it is lots, not just a few) want to be able to get abortions? Why are women pregnant when they don't want to be pregnant? Your paragraph about women being stupid was obviously a joke, but that seems to be the mainstream view of why women get pregnant when they don't want to be - they were too stupid to do anything about it. Well, as I'm sure most of us are aware it takes two people to make a baby and thats hardly ever mentioned. Women don't have babies they don't want because they're too stupid to work out what you do with a contraceptive pill, but because for some reason they had unprotected sex with some guy and now, presumably, regret that.

So what kind of society are we living in when thousands of women every year get pregnant because their other half lied to them, or misled them, or simply pressured them in order to get them to have unprotected sex, yet once they try to remedy that situation they're told its their fault in the first place! That they shouldn't have been so stupid. Lets not kid ourselves, abortion is as much an issue of liberation for women as is equal pay and hiring conditions. It is a clear case of the mainstream society taking a particular problem thats at the very least 50% due to men (and probably quite a lot more - lets face it) and proclaim that women can deal with the consequences. Even those pro-choice seem to often portray it as if its granting a boon to the women in question, as if its a method of curbing poverty somehow, when in fact its often due to the poverty and discrimination that women want to get the abortion anyway. [/QUOTE]While you are correct that it is 50% the guys fault as well. The women get most of the perks from having a baby and basically all the say. Lets face it the guy has no say over if he can afford the kid or not. He can't say I want an abortion yet he will end up paying a good bit in child support to that woman if she has the kid (usually a good bit more than will take care of the kid depending on salary). He can't say don't have an abortion I will take and raise the kid. In this situation would the woman have to pay child support? The real issue is partial-birth abortion as they had plenty of time to make a decision before this stage.

[ 04-27-2004, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Either inform me when men can get pregnant, or maybe we should have more women have a say in laws regarding abortion.

I'm not a fan of partial-birth abortion either, not by a long shot... Usually if there's a problem of some kind, a woman should abort earlier in the pregnancy. But I was at the march. And don't believe what the press says, either. At least a million attended that march... Not all of us got counted. Not by a long shot.

And I really hate it when pro-lifers discuss abortion because religion is brought into the issue too often for my liking. When does the soul enter the body? At conception? Well, alright. What if the zygote splits and becomes twins? Do two souls enter the cell? Three? What if one gets aborted? Does the soul go to heaven? Does it get reincarnated? Are we prepared to make distinctions here, in our supposedly secular society?

You can't make laws regarding something that needs to be taken on a case-by-case basis.

And I'm not even going to mention the fact that pro-lifers are more prone to violence anger, and gory images during protests or outside clinics. How is showing a bloody image of an aborted fetus good for the children that are present at the demonstration? We didn't parade about color photos of infants in garbage cans, or abused children.

Finally, I would like to propose two scenarios. Woman A gets pregnant at age 18, accidentally, but her religion forbids abortion. She drops out of school and raises a child whom she resents. Woman B gets pregnant at age 18, but realizes that she is in no position to raise a child. She aborts it and waits until she's thirty to raise a child in a loving environment.

Which child is better off?

[pritchke]

Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: She drops out of school and raises a child whom she resents. Woman B gets pregnant at age 18, but realizes that she is in no position to raise a child. She aborts it and waits until she's thirty to raise a child in a loving environment.

I am not against abortion but I am against partial-birth abortion. The kid has arms, legs, and is almost developed. She should know before this stage if not have the kid and put it up for adoption. There are alternatives to murder.

Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: How is showing a bloody image of an aborted fetus good for the children that are present at the demonstration?

What are kids doing at such a demonstration? Demonstrations like this can turn ugly it is like placing your children in harms way. For me I don't think it is a good event for kids to take part in.

[ 04-27-2004, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: Either inform me when men can get pregnant, or maybe we should have more women have a say in laws regarding abortion.

Silly comment.

I'm not a fan of partial-birth abortion either, not by a long shot... Usually if there's a problem of some kind, a woman should abort earlier in the pregnancy.

Just to note -- I think the new partial birth ban includes an escape hatch for women whose health is at serious risk if they give birth.

And I really hate it when pro-lifers discuss abortion because religion is brought into the issue too often for my liking. When does the soul...

Like it or not, this is central to the whole debate. And, it is really why the issue cannot be resolved between some people. If I have no right to tell you that you cannot be Christian, I likewise have no right to tell you when the soul enters the fetus.

You can't make laws regarding something that needs to be taken on a case-by-case basis.

Sure you can -- we do all the time. In fact, every criminal law follows this format: [Guilt = act + guilty mind - mitigating circumstances]

And I'm not even going to mention the fact that pro-lifers are more prone to violence anger, and gory images during protests or outside clinics.

I guess this is the overall perception. I'm a pro-choicer though (actually, I prefer "pro death"), and I can get pretty darned violent when I want.

Finally, I would like to propose two scenarios. Woman A gets pregnant at age 18, accidentally, but her religion forbids abortion. She drops out of school and raises a child whom she resents. Woman B gets pregnant at age 18, but realizes that she is in no position to raise a child. She aborts it and waits until she's thirty to raise a child in a loving environment. Which child is better off?

Obviously Child B is better off. However, what you are missing is the Child A is better off in scenario A than in scenario B -- Because in scenario B, Child A is DEAD.

[promethius9594]

Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: Finally, I would like to propose two scenarios. Woman A gets pregnant at age 18, accidentally, but her religion forbids abortion. She drops out of school and raises a child whom she resents. Woman B gets pregnant at age 18, but realizes that she is in no position to raise a child. She aborts it and waits until she's thirty to raise a child in a loving environment. Which child is better off?

well, i read an artical about an old form of abortion where they used to stick a sharp object in the womb, then just scramble the baby, and pull out the pieces. as it so happens, one particular baby managed to dodge and lose just an arm, so as the doctor pulls out the pieces he pulls out an arm and... SUPRISE... live baby. the doctor has now not aborted the fetus, he has delivered it, and to kill it at this point would consitute murder of the first degree. thus, doc bandages the babies severed arm and woman puts baby up for addoption. 15 years later, baby has grown into an attractive teenage girl (with a minor blemish of lacking one arm) who has never met her real mom (yeah, i wouldnt want my kid to know me either, after trying to abort them and accidently just choping their arm off). asked by a reporter if she was glad that the abortion doctor had failed to kill her, she said that every day is a gift that she appreciates and even without an arm and without a mother she wouldnt wish to have missed out on life.

so, which child is better off? the child who dies without a chance to ever get to experience anything in life? or the child who gets to live? well, i dont think theres anyone out there who doesnt have SOME joy in their life, so child A will get some good times and some bad times, just like everyone else in this world. child B will be too dead to get a chance to experience anything, much less joy. you tell me which is better off...

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Originally posted by pritchke: quote: Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: She drops out of school and raises a child whom she resents. Woman B gets pregnant at age 18, but realizes that she is in no position to raise a child. She aborts it and waits until she's thirty to raise a child in a loving environment.

I am not against abortion but I am against partial-birth abortion. The kid has arms, legs, and is almost developed. She should know before this stage if not have the kid and put it up for adoption. There are alternatives to murder.

Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: How is showing a bloody image of an aborted fetus good for the children that are present at the demonstration?

What are kids doing at such a demonstration? Demonstrations like this can turn ugly it is like placing your children in harms way. For me I don't think it is a good event for kids to take part in. [/QUOTE]I see a *lot* of kids at these demonstrations. Most of them are dragged along by the pro-lifers. It's irresponsible.

[Yorick]

I know a girl who went to that march.

She's never had an abortion.

I know a large number of women who have had abortions. All, all, all without exception are filled with irreconcilable grief at what they did, at the life they took. All wish there had been just ONE VOICE counselling them against destroying the life of their unborn child. But there were none. And all they are left with is deep grief and regret.

Hundreds of thousands were at a march millions have forever been denied the opportunity to attend.
I wonder how many others who marched never had abortions, and how many women who have aborted sat home and wept.

Thankfully I know one woman of incredible bravery, who will be speaking at an abortion couselling clinic, trying to help women come to terms with their grief and move on. She's gotten the courage to take her private darkest grief, weather it and help other women heal. Kudos and salutations.

Meanwhile hundreds of thousands marched on Washington screaming for the right to not only destroy countless more human lives, but also send countless more women into extreme mental anguish as a result.

What a wonderful caring society we live in. So educated and life respecting. So open minded and compassionate.