race recommendations

i believe the best races for each class are as follows:

(based on dex, str, spd, sen)
bard: hobbit, mook
fighter: lizardman, dracon, hobbit, mook, felpurr
rogue: felpurr, hobbit, human

(based on int, pie, dex, spd, sen)
alchemist: elf, gnome, human
mage: elf, gnome, human

(based on int, dex, str, spd, sen)
monk: elf, felpurr, hobbit, human
ranger: mook, gnome, hobbit, human
samurai: hobbit, dracon, human

(based on int, pie, dex, str, spd, sen)
priest: rawulf, dracon, dwarf
valk: dracon, dwarf
lord: dracon, dwarf


thoughts -
i've intentionally left faerie off the list, as i do not believe their other bonuses off-set their weapon, armour, and carry capacity limitations. also, i've excluded the psionicist and gadg as they are not classes i normally play, and ninja and bishop are too generalised to benefit from this analysis.

it is worth noting that the worst classes for attribute specialisation were not monk or samurai, but the lord and valk.

the most surprising thing, i thought, was the vast presence of humans, in spite of the fact that i used ability to specialise for evaluation.


how and why -
on the back of running the freak show, i put some thought into what makes the best race for each class.

i've assumed that the ability of a character to specialise is a strong indication of their ability to be effective at the beginning, middle, and end of a game. therefore, i've selected those races that can quickly maximise any 3 attributes that are potentially important to that class. a list of attributes used precedes each list of class/race. (dex, spd, and sen made the list for every class, vit made the list for none.)

although no conisderation is made for which attributes are most quickly maximised for each race/class combination, i did throw out some races that did not achieve minimum levels in some of attributes. this is important, as the attributes the character specialises in can make a big impact on the type of contribution they deliver. for example, a hobbit bard would max sen, dex, and spd, most quickly, but a mook bard would max dex, str, and sen most quickly - obviously these characters would end up making vastly different contributions to their party.

[Freeminded]

In one of my parties my best char was a lizardman valk named beatix,
You have not included Lizardman under valk although i think it worked okay as she was taking alot off and had the most kills?

[Wereboar]

(based on int, pie, dex, spd, sen) alchemist: elf, gnome, human mage: elf, gnome, human

The list is too long. It doesn't make sense to raise senses for a mage, and i'd prefer vitality over dex for these classes.
You wrote you ruled out fairies. Well, mages and psionics are very restricted what weapon and armor to use. A fairy doesn't loose much in this case (only thing you'd miss is robes of rejuvination)

(based on int, pie, dex, str, spd, sen) priest: rawulf, dracon, dwarf valk: dracon, dwarf lord: dracon, dwarf

You don't need to raise int with a valkury or a lord. They will not be offensive casters, and don't need powercast.

the list is not meant to say that any other choices are bad choices, or that choosing other races dooms you to failure. so with regard to the lizzy valks, freeminded, i'm sure she was an excellent contributor to the party.

there's two big assumptions underlying this. the first is that the most effective characters are those who maximise stats as quickly as possible. the second is that the choice of stats to maximise are best selected from the lists i used.

so while hardly a definitive race preference list, i think it raises some big questions: what criteria make for the best racial choices? with so much to consider, what do you prioritise? is it specialism? if so in what?

and that is without taking into account party composition.

as you look at this list, consider the alternatives they present.

freeminded - your lizzy valk was good. would a lizzy fighter have done the same thing, only better (if the valk was almost strictly doing melee)? or what about a dracon valk (if the valk was spellcasting extensively)?

wearboar - consider a gnome mage who's run up intelligence, dex, and senses. powercast, high initiative, armour class bonuses, and a high number of medusa stones thrown with maximum accuracy.

wb - regarding including int in the list for priest, lord, and valk, it is in there as a consideration. although they do not cast heavily offensively, powercast can add to the duration of buffs, the speed of learning spellbooks, and the effectiveness of those high level attacking spells (deathwish, power 7, powercast. ouch.)

having said that, notice that the races listed do not have high intelligence. the fastest stats they will raise will be str, pie, and dex. so, in spite of including intelligence as a possibility, the fastest specialising priest/lord/valk would not run up int.

finally, wb, regarding faeries, the robes of rejeuv blow away the faerie's natural mana regen, and having them for the last 2/3 of the game easily outbenefits the faerie mana regen in the first 1/3 of the game. so elves deserve consideration over faeries just on this basis. add on top the faerie's carray capacity penalty, low strength/vitality, the resulting low hitpoints/stamina, and trade this off against the paltry 2 ac bonus, and it's no contest.

or, to put this another way, are faerie's playable? sure, anything is playable. are they preferable? hardly.

[dplax]

Originally posted by sultan: finally, wb, regarding faeries, the robes of rejeuv blow away the faerie's natural mana regen, and having them for the last 2/3 of the game easily outbenefits the faerie mana regen in the first 1/3 of the game. so elves deserve consideration over faeries just on this basis. add on top the faerie's carray capacity penalty, low strength/vitality, the resulting low hitpoints/stamina, and trade this off against the paltry 2 ac bonus, and it's no contest. or, to put this another way, are faerie's playable? sure, anything is playable. are they preferable? hardly.

I think faerie's are playable, and in a 4 person party (no RPC's) I'm playing now the CC penalty is easily offset by the lizzy fighter, and even the hobbit rogue, and erlf priest can carry reasonable amounts. And in this party the faerie never even gets hit, because I put her in the middle, with the priest, adn the other two up front, and they just blast through anything before it gets there, or the fighter and the rogue hack it to pieces if it gets there. I ran up dexterity for her after int and piety, and the reflextion skill helps a lot. But of course playability of faeries depends on party construction and personal likes/dislikes, but I would consider them as good mages/ bishops.

i'd say faerie's are also playable as ninjas (for obvious reasons) and monks (speed and ac benefits).

i've never done the retro dungeons, but the amulet of nebdar, if usable by faeries, would mitigate a lot of the negatives i listed above. this would make having one faerie quite doable in a party that covers their weaknesses in other ways (such as dplax described).

however, in any of these cases (amulet, CoC, monk), you end up having to tailor your party to fit around the faerie. maybe this is justifiable for role-playing reasons (hey, i've done it, too), but purely from a character (and party) effectiveness standpoint, they're not worth it.

dare this bring on catcalls of "power gaming"? perhaps so, and perhaps deservedly.

so, on the one hand, consider the recommendations food for thought, though: if you're new, the list can give you a starting point. if you're a long time player, let this challenge the way you think about class development now.

on the other hand, if you disagree that specialty is the best way to develop the strongest characters, then what is another criteria for selecting strong class/race combinations? i'd genuinely like to hear them, if there's only one thing i'm sure of, it's that i can always learn something new. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Ziggurat]

IIRC, all races and classes can use Nebdar's amulet. It is cursed but who cares?

[Scatter]

Yah, Nebdar is the one regen-and-antimagic item that anyone can wear.

beauty. i think i'll pull an old party off the peak and take a wander down the retro way!